When Nerds Collide (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#101

Post by jnbiche » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:05 AM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #5

> When weird nerds watch the cool kids jockeying for social position on Twitter, we see no difference between these status games and the ones we opted out of in high school. [...] “corporate culture” that’s as loudly promoted and roughly as genuine as the “school spirit” These bits resonated with me more than I had expected. The declaration "life is not like high school" is only partially true. College offers a tempo…

> Even among two nations equally authoritarian in practice, the one where the population all knows and recites the social-mores of democracy is much much better-off and more likely to achieve them.

This is off-topic, but I disagree strongly. Some of the very worst authoritarian countries (N. Korea, Iraq under Hussain, a depressingly large number of African countries) all share a total devotion to "democracy" and "elections". With the notable exception of dissidents, most citizens of these countries fervently tribute to these ideals, at least in public. I've been to a country like this, in Africa, and this isn't just an act. People actually believe in this democracy.

That said, I do support the shared ideal among hacker culture of "judgment by your work". However, I do strongly oppose the abrasive means by which people are told that their work isn't up to par in this same culture. It's cruel and unnecessary.

It is possible to both judge people by their abilities, and at the same time refrain from being abrasive or cruel toward people who fall short.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#102

Post by jnbiche » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:08 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #99

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #27

One of the biggest frustrations to me, and I do believe this is a new thing, is people with evangelistic universalist worldviews joining these groups and expecting everybody to conform to it. I feel like "nerd culture" was partially defined by being made up of the parts left out of mainstream, inherent heterogeneity, rather than a positive set of things, so arguing you're right and I'm wrong and that's that, is highl…

My disdain has always been for social rules that never made sense - i.e. in order to be liked, you have to look good, dress in a certain way, talk in a certain way, belong to certain groups . I don't want to be different, it isn't my desire to be seen as a geek, however it pisses me off that people judge books by their covers and in order for me to follow rules, well, those rules have to make sense. For the project I…

> Am I a cool geek, a weirdo, a nerd? Point is, I don't really care, never did.

Thank you. Personally, I find this desire to put everyone into neat categories depressing.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#103

Post by k__ » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:18 AM UTC

Argorak wrote: post #66

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

Sounds more like you do professional get-togethers than nerdy stuff. People behave more like "at work" at those meetups and conferences.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#104

Post by biafra » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:35 AM UTC

RKoutnik wrote: post #29

I was shocked, visibly, when I found out that no one at the first startup I worked at played tabletop RPGs. I was shocked again when they looked down on me because I did. In a city that prides itself on "weirdos", I was the wrong kind of weird. In college I poured over Steven Levy's Hackers , hoping one day I would be able to meet the tech elite. I jumped at the first chance I got to work out here, hoping I'd finally…

If you cannot find the right meetup or hacker space, why not create your own? If I were in SF I'd probably visit Noisebridge. That would be nerdy enough for me, I guess :-)

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#105

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:38 AM UTC

Argorak wrote: post #100

sgift wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What they aren't free to do without push-back is to tell others who want to do gardening that they should tolerate their abuse. I agree with Angorak that there is nothing in what we do that would require people being assholes which is why I, too, find it unacceptable. The real problem is that there is no coherent definition of abuse and people who are better at playing the social game use that skill to define every…

That's exactly the reason why I put up CoCs for example - we define what is inacceptable in a certain space and put it in clear writing to avoid gaming. It binds the organizers as much as the attendees. It cuts out the play. For example, CoCs for dating environments look very differently then those for confs. (did you know there are cuddling meetups and they have very strict rules to ensure people feel comfortable?)…

[deleted]

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#106

Post by Argorak » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:41 AM UTC

k__ wrote: post #103

Argorak wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

Sounds more like you do professional get-togethers than nerdy stuff. People behave more like "at work" at those meetups and conferences.

I used to run eurucamp (I'm on a hiatus), which is a very affordable summer community conference at a lake with impromptu bike rides, canoeing, parties and lots of visitor participation. We have only 1 invited speaker (keynote). We have people setting up podcasts programs for the whole conference just as a _community effort for fun_.

On the peak, we ran a 5-day conference set with a one week program around it only on voluntary work.

We currently have an attendance that is very diverse (we don't count) and we worked for that a lot.

It couldn't be any less professional and if it can, we'd like to remove that.

http://2014.eurucamp.org/concept/

The Elasticsearch usergroup is run at a small community-driven coworking space (and existed before Elastic, the company) and the Rust usergroup definitely has no professional outset.

I also ran devrooms on FOSDEM.

One of the meetups the Ruby Berlin e.V. runs (the governing body for all of this) has _3 full talks_+Lightning talks every month, without any company involvement other then providing rooms.

Suits are really of no interest to me in this case.

Also, I'd like to say that I'm not discussing from a theoretical point here - I've been doing community work for more then 10 years and have put all the things I say here into production at some point and in multiple contexts. With measurable successes and failures.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#107

Post by randomsearch » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:41 AM UTC

Argorak wrote: post #66

hyperion2010 wrote: post #26

This article is so spot on and covers many of the things that have bothered me for years about people who try to join nerd communities and then immediately start complaining about "inappropriate behavior" (eg the dongle thing). Yes, there are cases where there is real inappropriate behavior surrounding positions of power in corporate or workplace settings, but in the community at large and in the communal and public…

I don't see anything what you describe as inherent and necessary to nerd culture. What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. I certainly never "left the world" and certainly not because I found all those things useless or oppressive. I can still nerd out on a multitude of subjects from music to board games to digital culture and I do prefer to do it with people that don't use this culture as a reason to…

> What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that.

I agree.

I prefer to use the term "nerd" to mean that type of abrasive person and "geek" as someone who is enjoys the same interests but is not interested in point-scoring and other aspects of that abrasive culture.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#108

Post by arrrg » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:52 AM UTC

lucio wrote: post #91

modfodder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we aren't against diversity"..."they should make their bones, same as we did" sounds like it could come from any all white male institution. The problem is, we as humans prefer to surround ourselves with people just like us, sometimes that means same race, sometimes same religion, or gender, or political views, and often it happens subconsciously, choosing the person closer to our ideal without us even realizing we'…

No, and this distinction is essential: You're welcomed based on what you can do and not on what you are . "white male" is un-meritocratic, is something you "are", and not something you can "make" by talent and effort. "code" is cold, hard, unforgiving ("you can't argue with a root shell"), and meritocratic. She's saying: Nevermind who you "ARE", you're welcomed if you can "PRODUCE" (great code). That's exactly the an…

Meritocracy is a bullshit term. It does not exist in reality. It’s an illusion, a joke.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#109

Post by k__ » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:54 AM UTC

Argorak wrote: post #106

k__ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds more like you do professional get-togethers than nerdy stuff. People behave more like "at work" at those meetups and conferences.

I used to run eurucamp (I'm on a hiatus), which is a very affordable summer community conference at a lake with impromptu bike rides, canoeing, parties and lots of visitor participation. We have only 1 invited speaker (keynote). We have people setting up podcasts programs for the whole conference just as a _community effort for fun_. On the peak, we ran a 5-day conference set with a one week program around it only on…

I don't say you're an impostor :)

I just say all this sounds more like "conference" (= prof) than "hacker space" (= hobby)

Both can be fun.

I'm from Stuttgart and going to the Shack is a whole different experience than going to any meetup or conference.

Re: When Nerds Collide (2014)

#110

Post by karmacondon » Wed, Mar 11, 2015, 11:56 AM UTC

samastur wrote: post #96

blfr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is an abrasive culture and I oppose that. Why? Why can't hyperion2010, or anyone else, have an abrasive culture if they want to? There is nowadays some controversy about, best as I can tell, gamers who like abrasive gaming, ie. shoot and insult each other. I can see how one might not want to participate, but why the need to force them to stop? Wouldn't leaving them to it be a reasonable solution? If som…

The problem here is that hacking, gardening or whatever else people do is not "owned" by those who practice it currently or did before others and neither should it be. If they wanted to start their own Abrasive gardening club, where they would be abrasive to each other, then not many people would complain. I don't think it would be healthy, but they are free to do so. What they aren't free to do without push-back is…

This is flat out wrong. If a group of people start a hacking or gardening social subculture, then it is "owned" by them. If people start a goth subculture, others who join subsequently don't have a right to say "I don't like all the make up and candles and satantic stuff. If you want to start another club and call yourselves by a different name, that's fine. But you don't 'own' being goth."

If someone doesn't like the mood and tone of a given culture, they can start their own club or practice the activity without taking part in the social culture. They don't have to right to demand that everyone else change because their sensibilities are offended. If the members of a culture want to change to be more inclusive, then that's their decision. It has to be internal, not forced on them by pushy new members.