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Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

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Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters to me, at least, that the law be followed as written. Rule by whim and secret dictate does not seem like a good system of government.

What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings?

> What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings?

Then at least it's on the books as a choice our society has made. OP's issue is there's currently no clear legal chain of certain programs back to a democratic decision.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#102
post #66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just wanted to say that people who support the NSA aren't hiding in fear. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be backed by evidence. Every single lawsuit challenging mass surveillance has been resisted by the Executive on the basis of state secrets and lack of standing. The Executive is using a judicial tactic to avoid having to answer the question of whether these programs are constitutional. When that questio…

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It doesn't really matter if it's legal or constitutional, because if it's not then they'll change the laws or reinterpret them in a new way or write a new Patriot Act. What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens…

"What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens without probable cause."

Actually, it is the problem for precisely that reason. What it boils down to is the Rule of Law. If the people at the top can do anything they want and never face any sort of prosecution, it not only sets precedent for the rest of the big wigs to act the same way (banking crisis anyone?) but it also reveals the farce in a more public way than has been true in the past.

The rule of law has never been perfect, and certainly so in America, but I feel like before the internet only the most egregious violations came to light, whereas now the farcical nature of the system is being revealed across the board. When there is an undermining of the rule of law, people will begin to completely disrespect it, and society will actually become more lawless (in the sense that people break laws willingly).

This is beyond the three felonies a day rhetoric. I think the inner city is a perfect microcosm of this.

Clapper lied to congress bluntly. He should be facing prosecution. Why isn't he? Because DOJ or whatever DA doesn't have the balls. Why don't they have the balls? Good ol boy system? Corruption? Blackmail? (you know NSA has the dirt on the entire SCOTUS and DOJ) Take your pick, the point is that the branches of government are compromised. (including the fourth estate).

If you want things to change, the very first thing that we need to do is prosecute and jail those who are undermining the Constitution and doing so in blatantly illegal ways.

Without justice there can be no peace.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#103
post #37
post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's wh…

>This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common.

It's also about the future of our society, that which our children have to grow up in and deal with.

I don't know how we'll be able to turn to our children in the coming decades and tell them "the government is monitoring everything you say through voice and text on your phone, every keystroke you make on your tablet or computer, every purchase you make on your phone or through your card in this inevitably cashless society, every connection you make on a connected device, everywhere your devices check in, connect to GPS or triangulate... oh and every camera you see out and about is recording you and facial recognition software is tagging it as you" with the justification for their complete lack of privacy being "there were some guys in the middle east riding around in pickup trucks with AK47s so we needed this to protect us".

We're at a pivotal point now and it's very much up to us which way it goes. Our governments are supposed to serve us but instead we live in a society where we are very much ruled, where our rulers are the elite and their ruling mechanism is the complete charade of representative democracy.

We'll all be dead before it gets too bad, thankfully, but our apathy will condemn our children and their descendants to a life under tyranny which we ushered in through theatrical politics, fear mongering and a bizarrely held belief of There Is No Alternative.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#104
post #43
post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I work in the solar industry, and utilities are increasingly losing talent to the solar industry (my co-founder is one of them). The main reason people are switching is because they see themselves as having a more successful career in the solar industry. How can we make it so security talent has a better career working somewhere else? It could be multi-pronged. A combination of increasing private sector jobs and pay,…

> How can we make it so security talent has a better career working somewhere else? It could be multi-pronged. A combination of increasing private sector jobs and pay, decreasing public sector funding, and a healthy dose of public shaming might drain spying organizations of some more talent. Other thoughts?

You're never going to get open publishing / access to NSA research / infrastructure. So it's always going to be an interesting place to work.

Of the options, I think public shaming is the most viable. It's ridiculous IETF / IEEE / {insert org here} doesn't throw people out (to my knowledge?).

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#105
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not one or the other, and the NSA has demonstrated that it will use all the resources at its disposal to circumvent any technical protection. The NSA also holds a trump card: the law and the US government. I assume at some point that Congress will pass laws, or the secret court will authorize, compelling every American company to essentially open itself to unfettered access and surveillance. US companies already…

This is why I am increasingly convinced that GPL(v3) is going to become a bastion of hope for privacy. The major problem is that companies want to make money off the software, close it up and proprietize it, and then the gov comes along with a NSL or blackbox or other comprimise and backdoors/weakens the system, and all of a sudden all the customers of the company are vulnerable. FOSS and in particular GPL, is the wa…

Software can always be disassembled. I'm much more concerned about proprietary firmware and hardware backdoors. You should be too. Another thing also, is that the NSA have been shown to be weakening crypto standards like RNGs and, possibly, ECC. The problem with this is other standards like TLS and such ultimately use this infrastructure and that affects all software, FOSS included.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#106
post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

Don't you think that your observations could be naturally distorted by survivorship bias? I mean, it would be very hard for people to have a conflict between beliefs and their job duties for a prolonged time; something gotta give. Those who stay, change their beliefs (or articulate their loyalty at least to themselves and, perhaps, become "more motivated" as you describe) and those who keep their beliefs just quit and you no longer see them around.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#107
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

So is that essentially to say you agree with surveillance of citizens, without warrant or probable cause?

It's ok because:

- only the "good guys" do it

- No one ever abuses it.

- Even if someone abuses it they would never just get a slap on the wrist (maybe just fired, and security clearance revoked) rather than criminal charges.

- The disincentive for abuse is "patriotism" and no one has ever decided not to be a "patriot"... ever.

- Absolutely zero people in government seek out power, or have weird ideas about controlling what other people can do or think.

- No one in the intelligence "community" would ever abuse surveillance to (e.g.) blackmail politicians for funding/votes/more power. Because every single one of them always make 100% perfect moral choices.

- It's only used for "threats to national security"... except when it isn't, but the winning the "War on Drugs"/spying on animal rights activists/making sure US companies win bids for foreign contracts/making sure that the correct politicians are re-elected really all fall under the umbrella of "National Security" if you think about it...

/s

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#108

The solution should be technical: You don't want to NSA to read your communications: encrypt them (eg: HTTPS everywhere, encryption built-in everywhere). And that's us, builders of technologies, that need to make that happen. Basically securing against the NSA is the same as securing against hackers, it should be treated as a security threat like any other.

Do you not remember the Prism program that really got the anti-NSA sentiment running? In that case, they weren't listening for communication. They were compelling private companies to hand it over.

If we go all HTTPS, the NSA will just step up its pressure. Because the warrants can come with gag orders, we'll never know who's giving our data up. Hardware makers, SSL providers, data carriers, and destination servers can all be compelled by the U.S. as long as we allow it to operate as a legitimate authority over our personal data.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I am increasingly convinced that GPL(v3) is going to become a bastion of hope for privacy. The major problem is that companies want to make money off the software, close it up and proprietize it, and then the gov comes along with a NSL or blackbox or other comprimise and backdoors/weakens the system, and all of a sudden all the customers of the company are vulnerable. FOSS and in particular GPL, is the wa…

Software can always be disassembled. I'm much more concerned about proprietary firmware and hardware backdoors. You should be too. Another thing also, is that the NSA have been shown to be weakening crypto standards like RNGs and, possibly, ECC. The problem with this is other standards like TLS and such ultimately use this infrastructure and that affects all software, FOSS included.

I agree with you about firmware, but you will notice a very important overlap between the firmware and the software sectors here, in that it tends to be true that you end up with closed software to match the closed hardware (cellphone radio modems having DMA to the same address space as the CPU all under proprietary firmware and software blobs is a good example). I very much agree that we need open hardware, but it doesn't seem to be much of a priority for any of the big players that I am aware of.

Regarding the weakening of crypto standards, this is why I think everyone is wrong when they tell you not to roll your own. Even William Binney (NSA whistleblower) has been saying so recently.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#110
post #101
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings?

> What if the law says that secret courts can decide using secret proceedings? Then at least it's on the books as a choice our society has made. OP's issue is there's currently no clear legal chain of certain programs back to a democratic decision.

The FISA courts have been authorized by an Act of Congress. That's what the checks and balances are for, though, and the courts can overturn it.

I wonder if the system will stand uo though. The addiction to bigbdata is strong once tasted, and spy agencies actually enjoy getting away with stuff.

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