Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA • Hacker News Board

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#41

Post by Centreal » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

Creative and alternative ways of realizing empathy for emotional-intelligence state security issues are at will of our ability to trust network.

That is more an issue of unflagging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Trust_network than worrying about who is the alpha agent. We can count fine against secret traumatic wars if we each log action, community action (with secure, stable, distributed tools like http://www.matrix.org/alpha and https://www.getaether.net), and begin to self-determine our social systems and safety issues.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#42

Post by rapind » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:54 PM UTC

snarfy wrote: post #36

michaelt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it It's true that even if the NSA stopped tapping undersea cables, that wouldn't stop China doing it. But there are plenty of other things they could do. Instead of weakening encryption standards, they could work to strengthen them. Instead of trying to get software vendors to install backdoors, they could g…

Strengthening encryption standards strengthens the enemy too, at least this seems to be how they think.

What enemy is that? Would it really be that horrible if everyone had access to strong encryption regardless of their beliefs.

With sufficient know-how and sophistication you can keep your messages private anyways no? If that's the case, then isn't it really just the average joe using off the shelf tech that's screwed?

Edit: That sounded combative, but it wasn't meant to be.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#43

Post by diafygi » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:06 PM UTC

chippy wrote: post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I work in the solar industry, and utilities are increasingly losing talent to the solar industry (my co-founder is one of them). The main reason people are switching is because they see themselves as having a more successful career in the solar industry.

How can we make it so security talent has a better career working somewhere else? It could be multi-pronged. A combination of increasing private sector jobs and pay, decreasing public sector funding, and a healthy dose of public shaming might drain spying organizations of some more talent. Other thoughts?

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#44

Post by karmacondon » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:06 PM UTC

chippy wrote: post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it would be off topic.

I just wanted to say that people who support the NSA aren't hiding in fear. Only a small minority of people who work for the government, directly or as contractors, are ashamed of their employer or having a crisis of conscience. In general, nothing polarizes people and brings them together like an external threat. If everyone is shouting that you're bad, the most basic human instinct is to shout back even louder.

This whole thing has been a delight for management in the intelligence services. Some employees and contractors are much more motivated now. And many of those who support Snowden are still indifferent about the issues that he raised. It's either "go team!" or "eh, a job's a job." Only a minority are racked with self-doubt because of what's being posted about their employer on hackernews and reddit. Most will gladly tell you what they think, openly or in private, with no fear of criticism or backlash.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#45

Post by belorn » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:09 PM UTC

Dorian-Marie wrote: post #19

The solution should be technical: You don't want to NSA to read your communications: encrypt them (eg: HTTPS everywhere, encryption built-in everywhere). And that's us, builders of technologies, that need to make that happen. Basically securing against the NSA is the same as securing against hackers, it should be treated as a security threat like any other.

HTTP/2 could have mandated that it would only be used under a encrypted connection. It could have added opportunistic encryption.

The builders of technologies decided not to go that route. I wish they did, but we can't put all our eggs on the assumption that they will fix the situation for us.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#46

Post by bhayden » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:12 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #44

chippy wrote: post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

So is that essentially to say you agree with surveillance of citizens, without warrant or probable cause?

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#47

Post by bhayden » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:14 PM UTC

spot wrote: post #38

cryptoz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's wh…

well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point.

Well as you're seeing with gay marriage bans being overturned, just because the majority want to strip the minority of their rights, they shouldn't be allowed to.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#48

Post by mathetic » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:18 PM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #44

chippy wrote: post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

>> If everyone is shouting that you're bad, the most basic human instinct is to shout back even louder.

Citation needed. Even if this is the case, then it is lucky that we developed cognitive tools that allow us to reflect on our actions and try to comprehend why those people are shouting at us in a civilised society.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#49

Post by danenania » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:19 PM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

People undoubtedly once felt the same about slavery, women's rights, child labor, the divine favor of kings.

Don't be an apologist for immorality just because it's accepted as the status quo. We can do better.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#50

Post by sitkack » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 1:20 PM UTC

SloopJon wrote: post #33

As people become increasingly inured to the trickle of revelations, I do think that lawsuits are important. If Wikimedia doesn't have anything more than a logo on a slide, however, this will be tossed for lack of standing, like several cases before it.

I have a new idea for government lawyers, if anyone _does_ show lack of standing, claim that the evidence of harm is a state secret, try and jail them for spying before hearing the case, claim they must serve the first sentence before it will hear the original case.

My argument has many parallels with existing statements by the Supreme Court that lawyers representing terror suspects could they themselves be tried under the 'material support' law for simply filing paperwork with the state to clear their client.