Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA • Hacker News Board

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#31

Post by tokenadult » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:20 PM UTC

I am a Wikipedian, a contributor of free content to Wikipedia. (I contribute in Chinese, in German, and in some other languages too.) I read the Wikimedia Foundation blog kindly submitted here by an early Wikipedian and read all the comments here posted before mine before writing this reply. In the last two weeks, I've renewed acquaintance with quite a few local Wikipedians at two Wikipedia Edit-a-Thons that occurred in my town.

I see the Wikimedia Foundation has a rationale for its suit based partly on United States law. It writes, "Our aim in filing this suit is to end this mass surveillance program in order to protect the rights of our users around the world." Because I edit Wikipedia in languages other than English, crucially including Chinese, I am painfully aware that there are a lot of restrictions of the rights of users of Wikipedia all over the world, evidently some of them not within the reach of the United States legal system. There seems to be no prospect, for example, of the Wikimedia Foundation suing the Russian or Chinese central governments (not even to mention north Korea's regime or the ISIS self-styled regime) to protect the rights of users of Wikipedia. That's too bad. If the NSA surveillance programs ceased later today, there would still be a lot of places around the world where Wikipedia would be inaccessible or Wikipedia users would be harassed by agents of other governments.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#32

Post by jsnathan » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:34 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #31

I am a Wikipedian, a contributor of free content to Wikipedia. (I contribute in Chinese, in German, and in some other languages too.) I read the Wikimedia Foundation blog kindly submitted here by an early Wikipedian and read all the comments here posted before mine before writing this reply. In the last two weeks, I've renewed acquaintance with quite a few local Wikipedians at two Wikipedia Edit-a-Thons that occurred…

Precedent is a powerful thing.

I wouldn't give up hope yet, for the anti-surveillance movement.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#33

Post by SloopJon » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:35 PM UTC

As people become increasingly inured to the trickle of revelations, I do think that lawsuits are important. If Wikimedia doesn't have anything more than a logo on a slide, however, this will be tossed for lack of standing, like several cases before it.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#34

Post by frabcus » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:38 PM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

This article by Eleanor Saitta (Dymaxion) is excellent on this stuff:

"Ethics and Power in the Long War" https://noisysquare.com/ethics-and-power-in-the-long-war-ele...

You're right that stopping it politically is hard:

If you look at the historical record of surveillance structures, you have never, we’ve never seen a modern state without going through a revolution or something similar, roll back deployed and operational and technical capabilities.

You can though tweak the economic cost (and I'd guess that legal process is part of that, technical measures are too):

The economics of spying is the structure that controls whether or not spying is done. The notion of return of investment is very germane here. How much intelligence product are you going to get for a given investment. That is what determines which intelligence methods are used.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#35

Post by chopin » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:40 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #31

I am a Wikipedian, a contributor of free content to Wikipedia. (I contribute in Chinese, in German, and in some other languages too.) I read the Wikimedia Foundation blog kindly submitted here by an early Wikipedian and read all the comments here posted before mine before writing this reply. In the last two weeks, I've renewed acquaintance with quite a few local Wikipedians at two Wikipedia Edit-a-Thons that occurred…

In German law, there is the principle of "Es gibt keine Gleichheit im Unrecht" which means that it is not admissable to break the law if some other person does it.

The land of the free should be ashamed of its mass surveillance no matter what. Even if Russia and China and whatnot continue to do it. And, the USA has much more grip on critical internet infrastructure. Therefore it makes a difference if they care.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#36

Post by snarfy » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:43 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #26

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it It's true that even if the NSA stopped tapping undersea cables, that wouldn't stop China doing it. But there are plenty of other things they could do. Instead of weakening encryption standards, they could work to strengthen them. Instead of trying to get software vendors to install backdoors, they could g…

Strengthening encryption standards strengthens the enemy too, at least this seems to be how they think.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#37

Post by cryptoz » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:44 PM UTC

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO.

This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common.

Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's what's at stake here, not your personal files. Nobody cares if you can keep those safe - I want my democracy to be safe, please.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#38

Post by spot » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #37

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's wh…

well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#39

Post by mycroft-holmes » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #37

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's wh…

I also imagine that the parent's mentality is one people only have after the fact. I imagine if you hypothetically described a US government with its current surveillance powers before Snowden's leaks, people would have said they wouldn't want such a thing. They would have said it was equivalent to 1984.

But after Snowden's leaks? It's simply something we have to accept.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#40

Post by karmacondon » Tue, Mar 10, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

cryptoz wrote: post #37

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

On NSA stories, the top HN comment is always "too bad. whatever. let the NSA do its thing." NO. This is not about you. This is not about your data. This is about our society's collective ability to think and act for itself. Blanket acceptance of surveillance is a dangerous attitude and shockingly common. Political efforts, technological efforts, societal changes are all required to keep democracy alive. And that's wh…

> This is not about you. This is not about your data

Democracy means that your fellow citizens get a vote too. If you and those that agree with you can't craft a message that appeals to them and their day-to-day concerns, the grandparent comment will continue to be quite correct.