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Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

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Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#61

Post by fit2rule »

cjslep wrote: post #29
Sven7 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their opinions are bought and paid for. At current rates its 75 Billion dollars a year.

If you would like to put words in my mouth, please at least put the right ones in there for me. Otherwise, I'll take that $75 billion you are referring to and let you say whatever you want on my behalf. In all seriousness, you can support the Federal Government and still have constructive debates. EDIT: My point is no person is getting $75 billion just to shut up and have their opinion swayed. Being loyal to the Fede…

His point is that the military industrial complex is a serious issue - its not just the NSA. Even if we get rid of the NSA today, there's still going to be a billion dollar industry around making the world a nastier place to be.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#62

Post by diafygi »

snarfy wrote: post #36
michaelt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it It's true that even if the NSA stopped tapping undersea cables, that wouldn't stop China doing it. But there are plenty of other things they could do. Instead of weakening encryption standards, they could work to strengthen them. Instead of trying to get software vendors to install backdoors, they could g…

Strengthening encryption standards strengthens the enemy too, at least this seems to be how they think.

It also prevents the enemy from hurting your economy. The United States has a lot more to lose from compromising information security than to gain from it. Before 9/11, most of the time the NSA would help make security better for the private sector. Now, the private sector is actively working against the NSA.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#63

Post by nickik »

bhayden wrote: post #47
spot wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well if you love democracy so much you need to recognize that the majority is against you on this point.

Well as you're seeing with gay marriage bans being overturned, just because the majority want to strip the minority of their rights, they shouldn't be allowed to.

Then what you want is a republic or some system of anarchy, not a democracy.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#64

Post by Sven7 »

karmacondon wrote: post #44
chippy wrote: post #14

I have some sympathy for our fellow hackers who work as contractors or in big companies, many of them with security clearance. Database engineers, software developers, data experts - the five eyes intelligence agencies directly and indirectly fund many of you readers of HN. They might be becoming increasingly disillusioned with their chosen life and/or unable to change course. Perhaps the money is too good, perhaps t…

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

Not surprised. We heard the exact same reaction from Wall Street after 2008.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#65

Post by a3n »

Dorian-Marie wrote: post #19

The solution should be technical: You don't want to NSA to read your communications: encrypt them (eg: HTTPS everywhere, encryption built-in everywhere). And that's us, builders of technologies, that need to make that happen. Basically securing against the NSA is the same as securing against hackers, it should be treated as a security threat like any other.

It's not one or the other, and the NSA has demonstrated that it will use all the resources at its disposal to circumvent any technical protection.

The NSA also holds a trump card: the law and the US government. I assume at some point that Congress will pass laws, or the secret court will authorize, compelling every American company to essentially open itself to unfettered access and surveillance. US companies already are subject to NSLs, and the Law of Boiling Frogs suggests that it's only a matter of time until surveillance is openly and explicitly compulsory.

The only long term effective way to cut this off is to cut off the NSA's budget and scale back their efforts. But I also believe that will not happen until the first ski resort opens in hell.

We're burning our own village to save it.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#66

Post by bhayden »

diafygi wrote: post #55
karmacondon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

> I just wanted to say that people who support the NSA aren't hiding in fear. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be backed by evidence. Every single lawsuit challenging mass surveillance has been resisted by the Executive on the basis of state secrets and lack of standing. The Executive is using a judicial tactic to avoid having to answer the question of whether these programs are constitutional. When that questio…

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It doesn't really matter if it's legal or constitutional, because if it's not then they'll change the laws or reinterpret them in a new way or write a new Patriot Act.

What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens without probable cause.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#67

Post by sheensleeves »

Dorian-Marie wrote: post #19

The solution should be technical: You don't want to NSA to read your communications: encrypt them (eg: HTTPS everywhere, encryption built-in everywhere). And that's us, builders of technologies, that need to make that happen. Basically securing against the NSA is the same as securing against hackers, it should be treated as a security threat like any other.

Offense and defense are asymmetric in computer security just as they are in physical security. Offense has the advantage since defense is a thin skin around complex entropy waiting to pop.

I think that the relevant essay is George Orwell, "You and the Atomic Bomb." Just as the 2nd amendment is obsolete due to modern military hardware, privacy is dead if an APT wants in.

Not that I know.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#68

Post by stingraycharles »

mathetic wrote: post #48
karmacondon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem voicing my beliefs publicly. I'm always more than willing to explain the policies of the NSA, and happy to denounce the actions of Edward Snowden. I don't think he was a traitor, by definition, but what he did was wrong. It isn't necessary to divulge confidential information, the situation is pretty clear. I don't see any point in re-litigating the whole thing on this particular thread though, it wo…

>> If everyone is shouting that you're bad, the most basic human instinct is to shout back even louder. Citation needed. Even if this is the case, then it is lucky that we developed cognitive tools that allow us to reflect on our actions and try to comprehend why those people are shouting at us in a civilised society.

Well this is basically part of how you try to convince someone of your opinion. If you only shout "you are bad", you are going to get shouts back.

It's all about the way how to have a decent discussion. If you first acknowledge that the other party has some good points (for example, acknowledge the need for the government to acquire intelligence), and use that as a basis for further discussion, you have a much better chance to get rid of that instinct and have a reasonable discussion.

Right now, as we did/do with the people of wallstreet, it's a kind of "you are either with us, or against us" discussion. No good ever comes from that.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#69

Post by judemelancon »

bhayden wrote: post #66
diafygi wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just wanted to say that people who support the NSA aren't hiding in fear. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be backed by evidence. Every single lawsuit challenging mass surveillance has been resisted by the Executive on the basis of state secrets and lack of standing. The Executive is using a judicial tactic to avoid having to answer the question of whether these programs are constitutional. When that questio…

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. It doesn't really matter if it's legal or constitutional, because if it's not then they'll change the laws or reinterpret them in a new way or write a new Patriot Act. What we should focus on is whether a government should be allowed to operate in secrecy, without any public oversight or knowledge, and whether the government can be morally justified in surveilling citizens…

It matters to me, at least, that the law be followed as written. Rule by whim and secret dictate does not seem like a good system of government.

Re: Wikimedia v. NSA: Wikimedia Foundation files suit against NSA

#70

Post by zby »

scrrr wrote: post #11

I've been thinking about surveillance lately and have come to the conclusion that it's simply here to stay. I really doubt any legal action will change anything what the NSA does. The future is digital, they cannot and will not step down while other countries, basically everyone that is capable to do it, will do it. It's such a big power factor that it cannot be ignored. The arms race in cyberspace has begun long ago…

The problem is not that they can do it - the problem is attribution. The governments can do a lot of bad things, and it is not ethics that stop them.
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