Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#131

Post by jusben1369 » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:48 AM UTC

mattmaroon wrote: post #59

I'm sorry but this is insane. I guess I can only speak to the segment of the tech industry I've been exposed to, but a woman would not be labelled a liability for reporting a rape or an assault, unless maybe it turned out to be false, in which case that's no different than any other industry. I am sure workplace rape and assault happens in every industry, unfortunately, but I've seen no evidence it's more common or a…

If you look through the comments here and in other similar threads you'll see numerous variations on the "what wait? just leave." It's an understandable but wrong response to these situations. It shifts the problem from the perpetrator to the victim. It's similar to asking women to be covered from head to toe so that they can't somehow tempt males. The onus isn't on the male to control his desires it's on the female to ensure that his desires are not aroused. So if rape and sexual harassment is happening at a workplace don't blame the victim for not leaving blame the perpetrator for bringing that into the workplace.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#132

Post by jdub » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:49 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #86

woofyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

The word 'rape' is being re-defined now. The definition is being expanded far beyond what we called rape 20 years ago. Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment, but it is backfiring. They will dilute the term to the point where violent rape is no longer seen as the uniformly more serious offense that it is.

Do you understand the difference between robbery, armed robbery, violent robbery, and robbery leading to death (i.e. murder)? OK, now you're ready to reassess your archaic (and frankly offensive) misunderstanding of rape.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#133

Post by woofyman » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #91

rayiner wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

Edit: I'm wrong. Apparently coercion implies under threat. I Thought it just meant to convince someone of something. My apologies.

Coercion includes force or threats. The nature of the threat matters in this discussion.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#134

Post by graeme » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #95

golemotron wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that as a heterosexual man, regardless of my financial circumstances, no one could coerce me into giving blowjobs under the threat of losing my job. I'd quit and take my chances. What am I missing here?

From one heterosexual man to another, surely we can see that we're in a different situation than this woman was. Also, > Young associate worked for this partner I don't know how the legal profession works. But: 1. It's quite likely that leaving firm as a young associate carries a huge negative connotation. In other words, her choices might not have been "give a blowjob" or "quit and find another job." It might have b…

In the US, if she was at Biglaw, then my impression is that leaving is basically unheard of. You're intended to work for a firm for 2-4 years and move on, or stay at the firm on a partner track.

Once you're out, it's very hard to get back in. So in practice firms have quite a bit of leverage to demand things like work 100 hours in a week, staying until 2am, cancel plans with family on short notice, etc.

Edit: I mean unheard of to leave with no new job and try to get another one in Biglaw.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#135

Post by abalone » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

bluehat wrote: post #80

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

I don't really want to be the one to speak authoritatively on this topic because I can only speak about a very personal subject that happened to me and about what a colleague of mine told me under very strict confidence. I'd rather see serious scientific study on the topic, so we can refine our efforts to most effectively cut out this problem at the root cause. We know rape is statistically a problem and we know it i…

But I'm not asking for an authoritative proposal to fix rape. That would be great, and take years. I just want to understand the specific scenario that led to a series of repeat rapes by a colleague over several month, also experienced by another female colleague. Isn't there a way to describe it generically without revealing any identities?

For example, is it after work parties involving alcohol? Does it involve professional blackmail? If so, was there no way to gather evidence that could be used for prosecution, such as a clandestine recording?

It seems to me like there could be an opportunity to speak to the startup community here and now and implement a policy that targets these specific circumstances, and make a difference in the near term.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#136

Post by JohnBooty » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:52 AM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #86

woofyman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not rape. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. Edited to clarify. Oral sex without consent is also rape. Threatening to fire someone unless they give them a BJ is sexual harassment.

The word 'rape' is being re-defined now. The definition is being expanded far beyond what we called rape 20 years ago. Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment, but it is backfiring. They will dilute the term to the point where violent rape is no longer seen as the uniformly more serious offense that it is.

Focusing on the distinction between "violent" and "nonviolent" rape is dangerous and harmful.

The practical result of this is that it puts the onus onto the victim: "You didn't resist enough. Therefore your rape was nonviolent; therefore it was a lesser crime."

Rape is sex against one's consent. Your consent is just as violated whether you resisted a little, a lot, or not at all (perhaps you were incapacitated by the attacker.)

In many scenarios the most prudent thing for a victim to do is not to physically resist; as rape is largely a male-on-female crime the victim is frequently at a physical disadvantage.

My wife is a small woman. If God forbid this ever happens to her, I certainly hope that the situation remains nonviolent. But I certainly don't see how that would make it less of a crime.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#137

Post by bluehat » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:53 AM UTC

swombat wrote: post #60

chroma wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story in this article is as foreign to me as it is to you. I've worked at various software companies in SV for almost a decade now, and I've also never seen or heard of anything like this. Obviously, it happens, but it's rare enough that one can go their entire career without encountering it. Similarly, 45 people were murdered in SF last year, but I never stumbled across a dead body in my commute. In fact, the mo…

I have spoken at a professional conference and had about two dozen drunk fully grown men shout-chant at me to take my shirt off, becoming louder and growing more numerous the longer nobody responded to them. Security did nothing, and I was on my own to de-escalate the situation. Yeah, I mean, fucking hell. Seriously? I don't really understand how this can happen. It's just not thinkable in any professional context I…

Not OP, but did write the article. I think everything you've said makes a lot of sense given the data set you seem to be working with, and that most people in the tech industry are very good.

The incident in question was my talk at DEFCON 19 right before the camera started rolling. I want to reiterate that THEY MADE GOOD ON THIS and I am NOT MAD. I feel like everybody learned a lot and things will be better now.

But yeah, there were over 1000 people in the room for that talk, I'm sure if it comes down to a "did it happen" or "did it not happen" we can pull up enough witnesses. That one is pretty cut and dry.

Here's the point series I tried to make in the article: bad things happen, when they happen nobody knows what to do about them, and we won't make systems which handle these problems properly until enough people give enough fucks so that they are actually properly made.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#138

Post by nknighthb » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:53 AM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #127

golemotron wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word 'rape' is being re-defined now. The definition is being expanded far beyond what we called rape 20 years ago. Feminists are trying to do this in order to call attention to sexual harassment, but it is backfiring. They will dilute the term to the point where violent rape is no longer seen as the uniformly more serious offense that it is.

[deleted]

Not according to the California penal code. Duress suffices, and duress is not limited to physical force.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/9/1/s261

"(b) As used in this section, "duress" means a direct or implied threat of force, violence, danger, or retribution sufficient to coerce a reasonable person of ordinary susceptibilities to perform an act which otherwise would not have been performed, or acquiesce in an act to which one otherwise would not have submitted. The total circumstances, including the age of the victim, and his or her relationship to the defendant, are factors to consider in appraising the existence of duress."

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#139

Post by AnkhMorporkian » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:55 AM UTC

bluehat wrote: post #106

[deleted] wrote: post #72

[deleted]

Would that make it OK here? If it happened any less anywhere else? Would that make you want to fight against a thing that was wrong any less? I feel like we all joined this community because we thought we could change stuff.

If it happens at an equal rate, then that means perhaps we shouldn't be focusing on tech companies specifically but in the legal framework that allows this to slip through the cracks. Morality can be on our side all we like, but companies of any decent size are way more interested in the law than morality.

Re: Sexism in Tech: Don’t Ask Me Unless You’re Ready to Call Someone a Whistleblower

#140

Post by hrktb » Mon, Mar 09, 2015, 1:56 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #56

abalone wrote: post #32

I feel so naive asking this, but I really would like to better understand the specific scenario that led to being raped repeatedly "several times over months" by a colleague. Especially because it apparently happened to another female colleague by another man "in much the same way my attacker had raped me." I don't doubt FOR A MINUTE that this can happen but perhaps understanding the circumstances could provide a foc…

Story from a friend of a friend's law firm. Young associate worked for this partner. Over the course of months, he coerced her into giving him blowjobs. Eventually she quit. 1) Why is this rape? Because coercion doesn't just take the form of physical violence. 2) Why not report to the police? Because it's mutually assured destruction. Even if you bring the guy down, you'll be known as the woman who called the police…

I think what horrifies me the most in these stories is that, once someone is in a situation where he/she is coerced in a position to have sex, there is basically nothing stopping an escalation in abuse.

If her boss found her attractive enough to want a blowjob, why won't he progressively try to get as much as he can get away with ?

She was not in position to refuse the first step, she won't be in a better position to refuse further abuse.

At the first threat, I have the feeling she already has to choose between her career and getting abused for years.