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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

471–480 of 528 posts

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is where we differ. I do not believe her explanations. Not when she tweets the same kind of joke herself. I think that brings up a very good point. You can make these jokes when you feel safe. Hank felt safe at PyCon, it was easy for him to joke right there in earshot of many like-minded people. Adria felt safe tweeting such a joke from her own computer. Adria did not feel safe at PyCon. This should be a huge…

Thanks for so eloquently describing what I've been trying to articulate about these sorts of situations. People can react in ways that appear hypocritical, irrational or plain malicious when they're put in circumstances that make them feel unsafe, uncomfortable or unwelcome. This can happen to any of us. Those actions shouldn't be praised, but they also shouldn't be judged outside of their context. It's really hard f…

> Those actions shouldn't be praised, but they also shouldn't be judged outside of their context.

Imagine that you live in a bad part of town, and that you have been assaulted before. Somebody takes out a pocket knife and starts carving a figure on a tree. You lash out and kick them in the crotch. Congratulation, you completely overreacted. I expect that most people would apologize and feel kind of bad for having taken out their frustration/fear/whatever on somebody harmless. Especially when they had a long time to think about what they did.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#472
post #45

So she overhears a private conversation between friends [none of the talk was directed to or being about anybody in particular], tweets a "summary" without context, adds a photo of the people involved, all in order to publicly shame them, while they did nothing wrong. No sympathy for her.

> No sympathy for her.

She's gone through hell. Why wouldn't you feel sympathy for her, even if you don't like what she did?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works up until the point when some belief you expressed years ago becomes outmoded. Look at Brendan Eich; a political donation from 7 years prior, of which he made no public note and was only attached to him because of legal reporting requirements, was trudged up and used against him. I know this isn't an example of an online anonymity issue, but it shows the very dark path of intolerance we're going down, and t…

I have real trouble squaring "public mores change" and "that dude donated money to a thing that is dedicated exclusively to hurting people." Sure, that thing he likes that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people is no longer in vogue. Does that make his decision to help a thing that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people less bad because more other people were okay with it then than are now? Eich backed some…

The "reprehensible" politics you're discussing are still very much mainstream. A very substantial section of the population, 45%+ at last count, not only does not view them as reprehensible, but holds them itself.

Eich is obviously of a different opinion vis a vis the harm caused by Prop 8. The question is, if one political fasion can be successfully characterized as "exclusively harmful" by its opponents, is it worth the risk of having your Real Name attached to any political comments?

Since we don't know now what will one day be considered a "lens of history"-style retrospective, perhaps the most prudent course of action would be to engage in discussion anonymously only. If we believe that one should be able to express political opinions without reprisal, we should deeply value the protection of anonymity.

The entire affair recounted in the article shows that if you make the wrong person mad and they have the right friends in the right places, you will face very real consequences merely for expressing a different opinion. In the case of the article, the difference in opinion was whether juvenile jokes like "fork my dongle" are funny. In the case of Eich, the difference in opinion was whether Prop 8 helped or harmed. Who knows what it will be when they come for you?

Eich's forced resignation is a free speech issue. We can't value free expression or free speech if we witch hunt everyone who refuses to recant their contrarian political positions. You're pretty OK with this now insofar as you, for whatever reason, happen to agree with Eich's shamers, but please be aware there's no guarantee that your political opinions will always be in favor. Would you be singing the same tune if you'd been dragged in front of the McCarthy Committee and/or blacklisted for being "vocally left-wing"?

I don't want to imply that private entities are not within their rights to choose not to hire someone with whom they disagree politically. They are within their rights to do so, but that doesn't mean it's good behavior. If we value meaningful freedom, we need to take a serious look at our shaming, revisionist political culture and do what we can to curb jumps to hostility, incivility, or shaming. Sometimes people disagree, and that's OK.

Suppose someone does oppose the Civil Rights Act. Should this person be stripped of their right to work? Should they be placed in prison for holding a "dangerous" or "exclusively harmful" political position? Is it OK if they oppose it on procedural grounds, i.e., they believe the Civil Rights Act has good ideas implemented incorrectly or suboptimally? What if they actually reject the modern racial narrative? How do we tell which oppositional arguments are legal and which aren't? Will you be publishing a guidebook on this soon so that we can make sure we never get caught on the wrong end of the "lens of history" (which, by the way, for any meaningful value of history, can't be viewed in the lifetime of the author)? Should annual endorsement of the Civil Rights Act become a precondition for the maintenance of American citizenship?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your mental/emotional state is at odds with the reality of your circumstances, therapy is in order, not scolding the hapless bystanders you blame for your delusions.

Are you suggesting she is delusional because she felt something that you cannot imagine feeling? When a woman in our field says " I felt this way " we say " No no, she's delusional, therapy is in order. " Instead of asking why and trying to understand what led to these feelings. This sort of behaviour doesn't help us become more inclusive.

She is delusional, because most women do not feel _unsafe_ being at a conference. Even where most attendees are men. Fearing for your physical safety, when the joke the guy made was not addressed at her, was not about females, is delusional.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

why should we be expected to accommodate aberrant, pathological behavior? Adria's feelings may have been authentic but they are so far away from reasonable or appropriate that I think we're actively harming our community by humoring her. At some point we have to just accept that Adria has some really profound issues that make her incapable of interacting normally with white men.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#476
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. Worse? One (presumably) could've had a ruined business due to DDoS which could've led to much more layoffs than just one-I'm-very-sorry-for Adria. Hanks' employer could've had much more troubles than simply loosing money - by having a "black-jewish-feminist-hater" in his staff.

Adria specifically pointed out that she doesn't identify with the feminist movement, so I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to posture he may be a "black-jewish-feminist hater"

Yea, you're right. But this whole story is a lot about "exagerration" leading to brutal consequences. You remember - Adria overheard just one single innocent word(the joke itself wasn't innocent but pretty cool for techies). And (suddenly!) imagined herself a rapists target. And she was saved from their violent desires only by asking help from conference officials! Then everyone finds out that Hank is a brutal sexist, apparently! And you're saying "a bit of a stretch"! Here's a stretch - I believe he should've been thankful that was just fired and not electrocuted as sexism treatment that I'm sure was planned as the next logical move!

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Involuntary sexualization is sexist though. What if the picture on screen was a woman saying 'I want to be judged on my merits not my gender' and the guys were saying 'Nice tits' out loud and laughing? Would that be sexism? I'd unequivocally say yes and, while inarguably less offensive, the dongle joke was still similarly sexist.

What if the picture on the screen was a male, and they cracked a joke about his "package" - who should be offended then? The presumably straight women listening in the next row? Any gay men within earshot? Everyone? The game of what is considered sexually "offensive" or sexist gets very complex when you start considering sexuality outside the "norms". Suddenly, traditional "sexism" and the assumption that everyone is…

As a bisexual gender dysphoric man and I can tell you that this strawman of alternative sexuality doesn't hold up at all.

What people who don't fall within the norm are mainly concerned with is ridicule, condemnation, threats, abuse and violence from those considered 'normal.' Whatever part of your identity is non normative doesn't significantly change that.

The main thing that changes is that the degree of disdain/disgust/superiority towards your group tends to determine how severe the abuse is; leading to statistics such as that 1 out of every 8 black transgender men end up being murdered.

Tragically enough nerds are also definitely on that spectrum yet somehow the abuse they suffer often doesn't translate into empathy for those even further down the food chain.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have real trouble squaring "public mores change" and "that dude donated money to a thing that is dedicated exclusively to hurting people." Sure, that thing he likes that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people is no longer in vogue. Does that make his decision to help a thing that was dedicated exclusively to hurting people less bad because more other people were okay with it then than are now? Eich backed some…

The "reprehensible" politics you're discussing are still very much mainstream. A very substantial section of the population, 45%+ at last count, not only does not view them as reprehensible, but holds them itself. Eich is obviously of a different opinion vis a vis the harm caused by Prop 8. The question is, if one political fasion can be successfully characterized as "exclusively harmful" by its opponents, is it wort…

When did having a bloc have anything to do with the morality of a thing? If 51% of people think that black people shound be hung from trees, is it now okay? "But 45% of Americans agree"--cui gives a shit? Maybe 45% of Americans are assholes. What is just and good doesn't change because you threaten me with the McCarthy Committee or a blacklist. I don't hold many political positions on whose hill I'm not comfortable dying, so bring it.

What really troubles me about this conversation is that you are persistently trying to reframe attacking the basic humanity of other people as "disagreeing". This is far, far more substantiative than a disagreement. Eich and his weird tribe are welcome to believe, in their heart of hearts, that gay people are lesser and unworthy human beings. They do not get to hurt people who've done them no wrong. Eich decided it was his place to put his money on the line and fight against the rights of people who demanded them, and you don't get to call off a fight you picked and agree-to-disagree when the fight goes against you.

Pity the man. He's not allowed to be the CEO of Mozilla. At least we all agree he's a human being, even if he can't do that for the people he'd have had reporting to him.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#479
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to say that, although I don't fully agree with you, I really appreciate you chiming in with your thoughts on this. It's given me plenty to think about. In the event that you are right, and she's really being sincere, then I hope she gets help to work through her issues. Especially over the parts about her childhood at the end. > I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system whi…

Thank you, I appreciate this discussion with you too. I often wonder what my reaction to these sorts of articles would be if the genders were reversed. And I find that I more quickly and easily empathise with males, which makes me wary that perhaps my feelings when reading these articles are not completely rational. I believe both parties did something thoughtless, Adria more so than Hank, but the anger here and how…

There are a lot of idiot trolls on the internet saying all sorts of ridiculous things. Usually it's better to just ignore them.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

I think the danger has to be substantiated in order for a larger crowd to care. Was Adria in actual danger? Did she actually feel fearful? If a person felt in danger, would she take a picture of the two men she felt endangered by, and then tweet it to publicly shame them? As a person who has gathered a substantial amount of Twitter followers, what did she think was going to happen to the two men? What was her ideal world outcome? That the two men would become embarrassed and apologize as examples to future men, and then their employers would allow them to keep their jobs?
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