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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#121

Post by bobcostas55 »

interpol_p wrote: post #92
near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

What is threatening about that joke?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#122

Post by Jem »

altcognito wrote: post #96
Jem wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back. (I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route…

Handling it personally makes a lot of sense. I have children, I don't teach them to immediately run to authority the minute they are offended. You should be able to confront/request somebody behave appropriately without them "giving back a mouthful of abuse". And therein lies the key, if they give you back a mouthful of abuse, then take it higher up. There are absolutely situations where going directly to conf organi…

I also have children, and I'm not sure how it's relevant.

Of course you SHOULD be able to tell someone you're offended without the risk of backlash, but it's always a risk. Clearly Adria decided to handle that risk in a different way than you or I would have.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#123

Post by Kenji »

CHY872 wrote: post #79

One important point here is that Adria's role was that of developer evangelist - a role that requires good community engagement. It's then not such a stretch to imagine that her ability to do this job well might be compromised in the aftermath of such an event. It's thus not totally unreasonable for her to be let go for this, even if it's not her fault. Having said that, I find both sides really depressing. The brogr…

"The brogrammer/franerdity approach does alienate women, which is why it should as much as possible be suppressed"

No, fuck that. Fuck suppressing people. Who are you to say what should and should not be suppressed? What is wrong with innuendos, one of the oldest if not the oldest kind of joke about one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity? Someone is offended by a joke (and with that I mean any joke)? They should gtfo, seriously, hacker culture is not a no-fun zone. No need to suppress innocuous jokes to accomodate for femnazi princesses, prude people and generally the easily offended. There are plenty of women who fit into this culture and have no problem with being easy-going because they know that this behaviour has nothing to do with discrimination or low opinion of women, it's simply nerdy silliness.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#124

Post by edent »

adekok wrote: post #63
andrea_s wrote: post #29

““Maybe it was [Hank] who started all of this,” Adria told me in the cafe at San Francisco Airport. “No one would have known he got fired until he complained. Maybe he’s to blame for complaining that he got fired. Maybe he secretly seeded the hate groups. Right?” This paragraph really gave me chills... A lot of insight about her thought process, and a bit terrifying in my opinion.

It goes on: > “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” > “Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?” she said. Remind me when someone was last killed at a tech conference like she says? Very rarely, if ever. Did she feel bad about him being fired? Nope. > “He’s a white male. I’m a black Jewish female. He wa…

> Remind me when someone was last killed at a tech conference like she says? Very rarely, if ever.

I don't know of any killings, but there have been a number of (high profile) sexual assaults at tech conferences - see http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

My friends say it's a regular (and sometimes terrifying) occurrence at some conferences. And I believe them.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#125

Post by adwn »

interpol_p wrote: post #57
[deleted] wrote: post #9

[deleted]

I initially had a similar reaction but then forced myself to take a step back. I think I can sympathise with Adria regarding her initial reaction. She's a minority surrounded by men who are happy to make these sorts of jokes within earshot. It sounds harmless to us, but I can't even imagine what it's like to have been at PyCon as a black Jewish woman. It must be very difficult to attend such a conference and then hea…

> as a black Jewish woman

Feeling out of place as a black woman I can understand, but how does her religion segregate her from the rest of the audience? Is this difference visible from outside?

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#126

Post by eloisant »

masklinn wrote: post #53
throwawayaway wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With enough money in the fired party's bank account, it would be. I think the only difference between Europe and the US in this regard is the amount of money required to get justice.

> With enough money in the fired party's bank account, it would be. Most of the US is at-will, employees can be fired for no reason or any reason as long as there's no breach of relevant federal statutes (Equal Pay Act, Civil Rights Act, Age Discrimination in Employment Act, Americans with Disability Act, …) — the latter being why employees are generally fired with absolutely no reason provided just to avoid any poss…

In US to get rid of an employee, you have 2 choices: fire or lay off.

You can fire an employee for his performances or for a fault, and he's not entitled to any compensation.

You can lay off an employee whenever you want, but you usually have to give him a severance package and maybe other benefits.

The difference between US and Europe is that a layoff is easy in US, while in Europe you need a good reason (for example the company is losing money) and you have accountability in the way to pick who has to go. Also the severance package is bigger, and there is a several month notice to give.

Back to US, a fired employee can sue if if believe the firing was not appropriate. In this case, I don't know if Hank or Adria were actually fired or laid off. In the former they could have sued, in the latter there's nothing they could have done.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#127

Post by interpol_p »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #121
interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke.

But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article:

“Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me.

“You felt fear?” I asked.

“Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’”

I believe she actually felt like this. And that it is possible for women to feel this way at a conference heavily dominated by men. But we are oblivious to it, we can't even imagine how it feels.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#128

Post by tomp »

> “I distance myself from female developers a little bit now,” he replied. “I’m not as friendly. There’s humour, but it’s very mundane. You just don’t know. I can’t afford another Donglegate.”

I'm guessing he's not the only one. If she wanted to make tech more welcoming for women, it looks like her plan backfired.

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