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Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

esquire.co.uk

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Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#161

Post by onion2k »

stfu wrote: post #93
probably_wrong wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say what you like, but Hank didn't do anything wrong here. I think he did: there seems to be no discussion that he violated the conference's code of conduct. If we want to reduce the sexism in tech, I think reporting these instances is perfectly fine, and even commendable. However. She could have asked them politely to stop. If she didn't feel safe doing that, she could have talked in private to the conference's or…

Do you really think that conferences' code of conduct should regulate what two friends are saying to each other privately?

If Hank had been making overtly racist comments in earshot of other people is it your opinion that those would be private things the other attendees should have ignored? Of course not. If someone a row in front of you can hear the joke while the speaker is on stage then what you are saying is public, not private, so it definitely falls under the code of conduct. The content of what's being said is irrelevant, be it a joke about big dongles or a racist remark.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#162

Post by bluehex »

mtrimpe wrote: post #143
josefresco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual != sexist. I feel like this concept needs more attention. Anecdotally, I hear just as many sexual jokes from females as I do males - the concept that "they feel comfortable" and happen to be surrounded by similar people (while/male) does not make it sexist, or even threatening.

Involuntary sexualization is sexist though. What if the picture on screen was a woman saying 'I want to be judged on my merits not my gender' and the guys were saying 'Nice tits' out loud and laughing? Would that be sexism? I'd unequivocally say yes and, while inarguably less offensive, the dongle joke was still similarly sexist.

> ... the dongle joke was still similarly sexist.

How so? As I understand it the joke wasn't directed at the picture on the screen or anybody in particular.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#164

Post by andy_ppp »

interpol_p wrote: post #92
near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

You can't on the one hand argue that offending people in a public environment is wrong by yourself making a very public complaint to the whole world...

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#165

Post by allendoerfer »

konstruktor wrote: post #76

What angers me most about that conference incident is the indiscriminate public shaming of two people, one of whom was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Imagine being all over the internet because your company sent you to a conference with the wrong guy.

I thought about that, too. The article helps to explain the behavior of everyone involved. I can see myself in everyones actions and later regretting to have done them.

Nevertheless if got into something like that, I would have sued her.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#166

Post by StavrosK »

TuringTest wrote: post #136
near wrote: post #44

The world is replete with examples of why you should never use your real name with your online identity in any way (although in this case, the guy's employer found out over a photograph; which is even more troubling.) If there's anyone worse than Adria in this story, it's both Hank's and Adria's former employers. You don't destroy a person's life over a comment or a blackmail threat. But as they say, if corporations…

> And, "if I had kids, I wouldn't tell jokes"? Seriously? This. Young netizens need to learn the meaning of "proportionate response". There were two adequate courses of action given the offence: - Confront the guys, and shame them face to face for their behavior. - If the goal was to change such misogynistic behavior of men at that kind of events (which is a reasonable and even courageous thing to do), the proper act…

But what was the misogynistic behaviour? I didn't see women enter into it at all, the article said that the joke was about a guy.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#167

Post by darkerside »

amalag wrote: post #106
eloisant wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are differences between Hank in Adria. * Hank did a private joke while Adria took the issue to the public (tweeted to her 10,000 followers) * Hank was a developer while Adria was a developer evangelist, so she officially represents the company publicly. It's important to note that a lof of her Twitter followers probably followed her because of her position at Sendgrid. Which is why I can understand Sendgrid's d…

As a developer evangelist you would think she could have handled it better.

Great point. She was speaking in her capacity as a SendGrid spokesperson. Putting that on a private Twitter account totally unaffiliated with SendGrid might not have had the same outcome.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#168

Post by interpol_p »

byuu wrote: post #135
interpol_p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a lack of empathy. It feels like anger at a system that caters to men in a field she very much enjoys and wants to be included in. Unfortunately Hank happens to be a fairly good guy who is defended by this system and oblivious to it. He's an unintended casualty of her anger at something bigger. I had many of the same reactions as you when I read her words. But I've been trying very hard to imagine…

> jokes that make me feel threatened I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like, "Have you ever heard that thing, men are afraid that women will laugh at them and women are afraid that men will kill them?" She feared for her life over tasteless toilet humor in a crowded conference? Bullshit. Her Victorian sensibilit…

> I really don't see how hearing two guys in a crowd of 800+ people talk about big dongles would make one feel threatened enough for a comment like

To her it's not 800+ people, it's 800+ men where you are one of the few women. That's not something I can say I've ever experienced. Personally I can't see how the joke is threatening, but I can't dismiss her feelings over this just because I find it tough — or even impossible — to imagine.

I've tried to read this article as Hank and Adria explaining their honest feelings. If Adria is being honest about her feelings, then I can see how her reaction came about. Even if I don't agree with it.

Like I said, I don't think the joke itself — or Hank himself — was the target of her anger. It was the environment, the culture, and the system which allowed Hank to make such a joke in earshot, comfortably, making her feel utterly excluded and even threatened.

You claim it's histrionics, but it might be real things she is feeling. What if she really felt this way? Shouldn't we try to understand Adria as well as we understand Hank? By dismissing her so easily we make our field more exclusive. We say, "I can't imagine that so you mustn't have experienced it. It's not a problem because I can't see it."

> Still, the complete and utter lack of empathy

Perhaps you are right in perceiving a lack of empathy. I don't think it's because she hates Hank and wishes bad things on him. I think it's because she is viewing Hank as an oblivious part of a system which puts her at a significant disadvantage.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#169

Post by minot »

interpol_p wrote: post #127
bobcostas55 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is threatening about that joke?

That's exactly it. We find it so hard to understand how that joke is threatening. It's almost impossible to imagine. It just sounds like a dumb joke. But look at how Adria describes her feelings in the article: “Have you ever had an altercation at school and you could feel the hairs rise up on your back?” she asked me. “You felt fear?” I asked. “Danger,” she said. “Clearly my body was telling me, ‘You are unsafe.’” I…

> I believe she actually felt like this. And that it is possible for women to feel this way at a conference heavily dominated by men. But we are oblivious to it, we can't even imagine how it feels.

I can't imagine what it is like to crave for a cigeratte. If our industry were full of nonsmokers, would we then have to go out of our way to accommodate people who want to smoke in their offices?

The joke wasn't directed at her. Her response was directed at him. She still seems to be in denial. Did she have to eavesdrop on a conversation that she wasn't a part of? She doesn't represent women. She represents herself and the high horse she commands.

I'd never hire her for anything related to developer relations. No sensible company should after her demonstrated lack of responsibility.

Re: Jon Ronson: How a Tweet Can Ruin Your Life

#170

Post by mercurial »

altcognito wrote: post #96
Jem wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with your first 3 sentences, can't agree with the last. Finding the courage to stand up and directly address someone who is making you feel uncomfortable - especially if you're a minority in a certain environment - takes a lot of courage and absolute certainty that you're not going to get a mouthful of abuse back. (I think talking directly to the conf organisers/staff would have been the preferred route…

Handling it personally makes a lot of sense. I have children, I don't teach them to immediately run to authority the minute they are offended. You should be able to confront/request somebody behave appropriately without them "giving back a mouthful of abuse". And therein lies the key, if they give you back a mouthful of abuse, then take it higher up. There are absolutely situations where going directly to conf organi…

If all she had done was go the organizers, we wouldn't be talking about it.
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