Why fuel cell cars don't work • Hacker News Board

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#141

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 2:35 AM UTC

api wrote: post #74

soperj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

"I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil." Yeah, nobody would ever "conspire" when trillions upon trillions of dollars in economic activity, millions of entrenched (and often unionized) jobs, hundreds of billions of dollars of sunk cost in infrastructure, the economies of entire nations and regions of nations, and generations of established thinking are at stake. That never happens. The pa…

Yeah, nobody would ever "conspire" when trillions upon trillions of dollars in economic activity, millions of entrenched (and often unionized) jobs, hundreds of billions of dollars of sunk cost in infrastructure, the economies of entire nations and regions of nations, and generations of established thinking are at stake. That never happens. The parent poster is just one of those conspiracy nuts.

While perhaps not quite at the same scale as gas-powered cars, I've been up close & personal with two very large industries going from world-dominating to patent-fire-sale in a very short time. Smith Corona used to be the most recognized brand on the planet, dominating the typewriter market alongside IBM; then the PC showed up, "word processing" became a thing, and after a brief attempt to compete by putting databases/spreadsheets/games on typewriters, that industry evaporated fast. Kodak was, subsequently, probably the most recognized brand, dominating photography & imaging; then the digital camera showed up, resellers (using the film/processing/prints model for foot traffic) were confused with customers (actual final buyers), a half-baked attempt at supporting digital was made, and ultimately the photosensitive chemical consumables market evaporated in favor of digital imaging capital equipment.

Core infrastructure industries can, do, have, and will disappear almost overnight. Interesting history.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#142

Post by GhotiFish » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 3:04 AM UTC

dTal wrote: post #98

Gravityloss wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's more efficient to use batteries, these are all entry level arguments. Perhaps I misread the audience. The infrastructure cost is totally different. Electrolysis and immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap. We don't have a lot of places where for a significant portion of time when there is excess power from renewables, but we will, in the future. Edit: To clarify: if you want to produce say 40% of yo…

>immobile storage of hydrogen is very cheap Where did you get this idea? You have to keep liquid hydrogen extremely chilled, under extreme pressure, and it inevitably leaks out. Compare to pumped water energy storage, which is at ambient temperature and pressure and has similar efficiency to the electrolysis -> fuel-cell cycle.

lots of solutions to this, one is to take carbon out of the atmosphere and make more well behaved molecules like methane http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction#Energy_storag...

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#143

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 3:05 AM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #8

phkahler wrote: post #7

The best source of hydrogen comes from the ground. You pump this stuff out - it's long molecules consisting of a carbon backbone covered in hydrogen. You run it through something called a "reformer" to strip the hydrogen off. The reformer could be put on a car, but it'd be more efficient to do it on an industrial scale. Actually wait, if you just use a combustion process you can get energy from both the hydrogen and…

Excess wind and solar power can be used to generate hydrogen from water.

At that point, you may as well use the power to build hydrocarbon chains out of CO2 and H2O. And as a bonus, we already have the infrastructure for using hydrocarbons as vehicle fuel.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#144

Post by cpprototypes » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 3:22 AM UTC

Most discussions of FC and BEV miss the most important factor that will determine which one succeeds in the marketplace. Comparing engine efficiency, pollution, none of that matters compared to this single factor. And that factor is infrastructure.

BEV supporters often assume that everyone lives in a nice suburban home with a garage. But the reality is far from this. Millions live in apartments/condos with parking structures that contain hundreds or even thousands of cars. And there may be a trend of the younger generations favoring denser urban living instead of the suburban living of past generations. Installing a few charging ports in a parking structure that has hundreds of parking spots is not a realistic solution. Will the owners of apartments and condos be willing to install hundreds of electric plugs into parking structures? I think the answer is either no, or they would do it too slowly to determine the FC vs BEV fight.

So for the millions in this situation, there are only these options for the future. BEV battery swapping stations vs Hydrogen stations. Supercharger is too slow compared to hydrogen filling. Only battery swapping is comparable. Which infrastructure is built more quickly will determine if FC or BEV wins. Energy efficiency, pollution, none of that matters compared to this.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#145

Post by cma » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 3:39 AM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #124

cma wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you list the lbs for the motor and not the battery pack? =P

Because battery swap stations or other machinery would do the heavy lifting

As opposed to an engine crane?

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#146

Post by vacri » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 3:40 AM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #87

Shivetya wrote: post #37

Get back to me when a practical, affordable, and go over 300 mile on a charge, battery powered car is here. Currently batteries are not a practical replacement. Currently if you want to hit near 300, you don't quite get there, your in the eighty thousand plus range if that low after common options for your only real choice. Home charging is still a four hour plus affair with the best chargers. Odd he claims that a hu…

Lots of people who have yet to own an electric car think like you do. People who've tried it and have home chargers discover: 1) It's really nice that your car is fully charged every morning... sure beats having to visit gas stations on a regular basis. 4 hours is not a big deal if you're asleep. 2) If you want to go long distance, a network like Tesla's supercharger does the trick. (Tesla owners drive SF-LA by stopp…

and have home chargers

This is an incredibly significant point that continuously gets glossed over in these pro v con lists. I park my car on the street, and that's not particularly uncommon. Should I run an extension cable over the footpath? What if I have to park further away than my cable reaches?

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#147

Post by lotu » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 4:05 AM UTC

cpprototypes wrote: post #144

Most discussions of FC and BEV miss the most important factor that will determine which one succeeds in the marketplace. Comparing engine efficiency, pollution, none of that matters compared to this single factor. And that factor is infrastructure. BEV supporters often assume that everyone lives in a nice suburban home with a garage. But the reality is far from this. Millions live in apartments/condos with parking st…

Why would presume that owners would not want to install electric car chargers in their garages if there was demand for it? Presumably in such a situation you would be expected to pay for the electricity in the same way you pay for your gas, so installing chargers would actually make money. The building owners would have to hate money to not want to install electric car chargers in their buildings.

Also, for many urban dwellers the choice is academic because they choose to not own a car at all. Instead using car sharing services these services would have no problem ensuring that their cars get charging ports.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

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Post by thrownaway2424 » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 4:14 AM UTC

bobbles wrote: post #85

thrownaway2424 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly all car trips are way under 300 miles. I believe the P95 trip distance (in the USA) is 30 miles each way. Most people can use an affordable pure-electric car such as the Leaf, e-Golf, or Fiat 500e for most trips. From a system optimization perspective, it's OK if some people (like you) always need the range of an internal combustion engine and everyone else switches to electric.

yeah 90% of my trips might be short, but i'm not going to go and rent a separate car when I do need a long trip

Sure, and for some people the solution to that is car sharing, or car pooling, or just owning two cars.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#149

Post by ams6110 » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 4:14 AM UTC

There are fuel cells that don't require pure hydrogen, they can use light hydrocarbons such as methane or alcohol both of which have a much more mature distribution infrastructure in place.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#150

Post by greendestiny » Mon, Feb 23, 2015, 4:16 AM UTC

cpprototypes wrote: post #144

Most discussions of FC and BEV miss the most important factor that will determine which one succeeds in the marketplace. Comparing engine efficiency, pollution, none of that matters compared to this single factor. And that factor is infrastructure. BEV supporters often assume that everyone lives in a nice suburban home with a garage. But the reality is far from this. Millions live in apartments/condos with parking st…

Fuel cells require massive infrastructure before a single FC car can be sold openly. BEV can saturate the market of people with access to parking and power right now - and that's not a small market.

The FC vs BEV fight doesn't start when FC enters the market, it's already on and FC is losing.