Why fuel cell cars don't work • Hacker News Board

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#31

Post by parsnips » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:32 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #18

aetherson wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extraordinary claim and I'd like to see some evidence that it's anything like possible.

Look up energy efficiency per person in cities like NYC versus Los Angeles. Subways , rail based transportation, and public transportation significantly reduce energy usage per person. The problem is that it's impossible to build these systems in the huge suburban sprawls that make up most of the United states.

So in other words, subways are solutions in search of a problem.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#32

Post by gambiting » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

I am really really curious how anyone is trying to solve the problem of Hydrogen leaking out of literally any container you could put it into. Smallest molecule+huge pressure = leaks out of pure lead canisters. When Mercedes made their Hydrogen-powered concept car they said the whole tank would evaporate naturally within 3 weeks if I remember correctly? As hydrogen forms an explosive mixture with air, I cannot see the problem of it leaking into surrounding environment as not being completely critical.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#33

Post by Htsthbjig » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:36 PM UTC

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply.

I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit.

Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe.

Today you can use this fuels only on fixed places, but over time we will be able to use it on cars.

But I don't believe this will happen soon. And when it happens it will probably use at least a small battery for getting the benefits of it:regenerative braking and instant responsiveness.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#34

Post by hnnewguy » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

>It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this point of view.

I feel the same. Of course I'm not an expert, but it seems like many of the issues he lists in the opening are things that can be overcome with improvements in technology (and could have been arguments against batteries or even gasoline at points in history).

Meanwhile, the engineers at Toyota are actually trying to make this work:

http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_techno...

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#35

Post by krschultz » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:38 PM UTC

soperj wrote: post #9

r00fus wrote: post #5

The article deftly steps around the real issue: Fuel Cells are entirely an petroleum industry promotion. The goal is to provide a seemingly credible (but in reality completely unworkable) clean alternative so politicians, car companies and oil companies together can work "towards a clean future" while deep down knowing that it's a stalling tactic to keep the petroleum infrastructure in place. Any fuel cell funding su…

I really don't understand the whole cars are in league with big oil. What on earth do the car companies have to get out of it? The big name in the 90s, Ballard, had buy in from a couple of car companies and no oil companies.

Don't picture a bunch of oil tycoons with monocles sitting in back rooms smoking cigars with Ford execs laughing about how they are going to crush Tesla.

It's much more subtle than that. I grew up around cars. My dad races them as his hobby. We restored a few, and spent plenty of time wrenching on a car together. It was one of the highlights of my childhood. It's still one of the things we often talk about when we see each other. I'm sure it's the reason I got a mechanical engineering degree.

When I think back to those times, a bunch of fragments of memories pop up. The sound a racing motor makes the first time you fire it up. The smell of gasoline vs diesel vs oil vs brake fluid vs transmission fluid. The grease on your hands. Knowing all the components under the hood, how they go together. How to start a cold engine with a flakey carb. How to fix a flooded engine.

There is real nostalgia around cars, and that means gasoline/diesel engines. I can barely enjoy modern cars with their plastic engine fairings and electronic controls, much less an electric car with just batteries and motors. I love building robots, and I'm a professional programmer now, but electric cars just don't excite me from the perspective of working on them. (Driving a Tesla is a different story).

Layer on top of that nostalgia, which I believe most of the people that work in the auto industry have, is the reality of 100+ years of IC engine expertise. If electric cars are the future, how much advantage does Ford have over a startup? Certainly some, but not nearly as much as they do in gasoline engines. Every bit of the drive train is completely different in an electric car. Not only are you throwing out the expertise in engines, but transmissions and differentials as well.

I can imagine that makes their position less defendable.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#36

Post by derekp7 » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #32

hansjorg wrote: post #19

Toyota, which is the largest car manufacturer by volume, have stated repeatedly that they are betting on hydrogen fuel cells rather than batteries. Given their track record with hybrids, one would think that they know their battery technology. None of the anti-hydrogen fuel cell articles that have popped up here lately have mentioned this. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the Toyota strategy from this po…

I am really really curious how anyone is trying to solve the problem of Hydrogen leaking out of literally any container you could put it into. Smallest molecule+huge pressure = leaks out of pure lead canisters. When Mercedes made their Hydrogen-powered concept car they said the whole tank would evaporate naturally within 3 weeks if I remember correctly? As hydrogen forms an explosive mixture with air, I cannot see th…

I thought the solution was to have an insulated tank and a refrigeration solution to keep the hydrogen liquid. Of course you will still have "leakage", as some of the hydrogen needs to be spent periodically to run the refrigeration, but this can be minimized with enough insulation.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#37

Post by Shivetya » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

Get back to me when a practical, affordable, and go over 300 mile on a charge, battery powered car is here. Currently batteries are not a practical replacement. Currently if you want to hit near 300, you don't quite get there, your in the eighty thousand plus range if that low after common options for your only real choice. Home charging is still a four hour plus affair with the best chargers.

Odd he claims that a hundred mile range isn't available using "safe tanks" when the Honda Clarity has been around six years and does twice that.

Manufacturers seem to be betting on fuel cells because they have many other uses other than cars. They also will have a weight advantage over battery powered cars

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#38

Post by mhurron » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

Htsthbjig wrote: post #33

I believe fuel cells will work when they can use methane, butane or propane cheaply. I already use an NGV(natural gas) car. Using fuel cells means you can get 60%-70% efficiency instead of 40% of thermal engines because you don't have Carnot't limit. Also, with natural gas lots of people will be able to charge on their home. Lots of people have natural gas pipelines in their houses in Europe. Today you can use this f…

Isn't using any hydrocarbon going to give you the issue with pollution that gasoline does? You're not really solving any problems simply changing what hydrocarbon you choose to burn.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#39

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

The picture of their race-car surprised me. The driver's seat is right next to, and seemingly unshielded from, a stack of 36 "very large ultracapacitors". Are these less likely to explode than other capacitors? Sure they might have electronics designed to keep them within safe operating margins, but for safety I'd trust distance and enclosure more than custom electronics.

Re: Why fuel cell cars don't work

#40

Post by krschultz » Sun, Feb 22, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

parsnips wrote: post #31

crimsonalucard wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up energy efficiency per person in cities like NYC versus Los Angeles. Subways , rail based transportation, and public transportation significantly reduce energy usage per person. The problem is that it's impossible to build these systems in the huge suburban sprawls that make up most of the United states.

So in other words, subways are solutions in search of a problem.

No, subways are very appropriate in certain situations. It wouldn't make sense to build an 8 lane highway to connect two towns in the backwoods of Alaska, but that doesn't mean 8 lane highways are a solution in search of a problem.