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F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

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Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#261
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course if most American were as lucky as you, net neutrality wouldn't be an issue. But the reality is that most of us are under a monopoly.[1] And it will take years and billions of dollars in infrastructure to enable the kind of competition that you are already enjoying. After suffering under Comcast's Netflix throttling last year, I don't want to hear utopian talk about encouraging competition. I want laws…

The point of my post is not "Hooray for me!", but was to point out that my good service comes from competition, and that the focus on rate-limiting of net neutrality is just a red herring. The thing with regulation is that it is pernicious, and once created becomes very difficult to get rid of. Let's walk through a hypothetical: Rate-limiting becomes illegal today, and simultaneously some arbitrarily effective incent…

And then everybody would switch to this new and cheaper service. Then your website, which isn't on the list, wants a fast connection too. For a fee the ISP would gladly make your service faster. However, many could not afford this and would go out of business. This, ironically, would limit your "choice" on the other side.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of my post is not "Hooray for me!", but was to point out that my good service comes from competition, and that the focus on rate-limiting of net neutrality is just a red herring. The thing with regulation is that it is pernicious, and once created becomes very difficult to get rid of. Let's walk through a hypothetical: Rate-limiting becomes illegal today, and simultaneously some arbitrarily effective incent…

And once this new company that limits everything that is not Facebook, Twitter and Netflix gains a large market share, how will any new company ever compete with Facebook, Twitter and Netflix?

How did HBO compete with NBC? How do we have any channels besides PBS for that matter?

How does any paid app compete with any free app?

Why do we have netbooks when a a Raspberry Pi costs $35 and (the 2 at least) can do everything most consumers do on a computer?

Your question carries with it the assumption that an ISP should be responsible for ensuring the success of application and website developers. Would you make the analagous argument that cable (television) providers have a responsibility to ensure high production values of television shows? Would you argue that a road-crew is responsible for the quality of your destination? These are all means of accessing something, and the content you get via the means of access need not be the purview of the provider of the means of access.

Furthermore, my hypothetical is only to show a possible consequence of limiting the bargaining choices of multiple firms in a market with competition.

To go a bit broader, your question makes it clear that we have very different views on net neutrality. I view rate-limiting as entirely neutral. There is a price at which I would be happy to accept a rate-limited connection. There is also a ceiling at which I would not choose a completely unthrottled connection. I would not like a rate-limited connection to be my only choice, but depending on price, I would also not like a completely unthrottled connection to be my only choice. Ultimately, though, my stance comes down to choice. I want more choice. By limiting the terms which I may legally choose to enter into a contract with a service provider, I am made worse off.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#263
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My tap water is clean and delicious and I have never, ever had a problem with it. I have never experienced an unscheduled service interruption with my water, and scheduled service interruptions are very rare and advertised well in advance. My electricity is stable and reliable, and any power outages I've experienced have been brief, and exclusively due to exceptional weather events. I'm also a Comcast customer, and I…

I had 3 great years of internet in San Francisco with Comcast. It basically was like those utilities: it was always there, around the promised speeds, with 0 outages that I noticed. Considering I work from home, and do all my codework over ssh, I could tell if there was a slowdown for even a few seconds. Then at year 4, for whatever reason, it started to have issues. At least once per month. How I miss those 3 blissf…

My experience in a suburban area is relatively similar. I wouldn't be surprised if what it really came down to was that people started streaming video from Netflix, Hulu etc... and simply put, the cable companies have less than zero incentive to optimize that experience.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bytes are bytes.

It delivers more than just bytes. It's communication in different forms for different purposes. On the other hand, when water is delivered it's the same water here or there.

"different forms for different purposes" -- no it's not, it's all bytes. The ISP should not care or know what the purpose of those bytes are. The same way the electric company doesn't care what I plug into my outlets.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#265
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the part where ISPs were regulated under Title II up until the late 90s. >The free internet we know today will be utterly dependent on their good graces. That may be the single most uneducated statement about Title II I've seen to date. What SPECIFICALLY in Title II allows the FCC to restrict what content the ISPs provide to the public? Hint: there isn't any language whatsoever giving them that ability.

We were? 90s ISPs regulated by Title II? What? No we weren't. I started managing ISPs during the dialup era and played shepherd to a field of Livingston Portmasters. I migrated us to racks upon racks of Ascend boxes during the 56k modem wars. I set up ISDN PRIs and DS1 terminations. I turned up our DS3s and set up our first default-free peering. I left just before the DSLAMs went in. At no point were we ever subject…

DSL was covered under Title II until wireline ISPs in general were ruled as an "information service" rather than a "telecommunication service" by the FCC in 2005 in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling in NCTA v. Brand X upholding the FCC's earlier (2002) declaratory ruling finding that Cable modem internet access was an "information service".

See, for instance, http://www.techlawjournal.com/topstories/2005/20050805a.asp

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#266

To me, net neutrality is pretty much a red herring. I have had good and bad internet service in my life. The least reliable was at my somewhat rural childhood home from TWC. The best is my current connection from that most reviled of companies, Comcast. I have had no service interruptions, and I get a reliable 50Mbps at all times of day (I check regularly with speed tests and checking Torrent activity). The reason my…

DSL speeds "similar" to 50mpbs? How similar? The fastest AT&T offers DSL is 6mbps (it's my only option). I thought that was a hard limit on the technology, but googling it produces varying results.

I do not feel dishonest calling 40Mbps similar to 50Mbps[0]. This is limited based on proximity to the provider. I live in Minneapolis proper, so this is an option for me. DSL can scale up to 1Gbps[1].

[0]http://www.centurylink.com/home/internetonly/ [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_subscriber_line

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#267
post #94

I understand the desire to regulate the internet as a utility, but are they going to actually regulate it like a utility or are they going to call it a common carrier and then just make up a few BS rules that need to be followed. I have a sinking feeling that all this will result in is a situation where monopolies are given out to the existing players and no one is forced to do anything to upgrade the existing servic…

>> a water utility where the product has little variance.

Now why, exactly, do you think that is?

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#268

That will be a sad day. Internet technology still has a lot of room to improve before the government steps in and kills all market forces that encourage those improvements. If you don't like your current service levels now, just wait until the government gets involved.

This is hand wavey bullshit. I'm happy with my water and power companies. I hope my ISP dies in a fire. They're product is subpar, overpriced, and their customer service is predatory and combative.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#269
post #221

Pretty impressed with the negativity here. Just a year ago, I remember all the stories on HN with people lamenting that the FCC doesn't have the guts to regulate broadband as a utility under title II [1,2,3] (admittedly with a minority speaking against title II, most prominently rayiner, whose comments I generally look forward to for an interesting contrarian view). Y Combinator even published an open letter[4]. Quot…

>> Politicians must think the tech community is a frustrating beast to work with.

Spoiler alert: the tech community is made of people. And yes, they are frustrating beasts to work with.

Re: F.C.C. Is Expected to Propose Regulating the Internet as a Utility

#270
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of my post is not "Hooray for me!", but was to point out that my good service comes from competition, and that the focus on rate-limiting of net neutrality is just a red herring. The thing with regulation is that it is pernicious, and once created becomes very difficult to get rid of. Let's walk through a hypothetical: Rate-limiting becomes illegal today, and simultaneously some arbitrarily effective incent…

And then everybody would switch to this new and cheaper service. Then your website, which isn't on the list, wants a fast connection too. For a fee the ISP would gladly make your service faster. However, many could not afford this and would go out of business. This, ironically, would limit your "choice" on the other side.

No, those consumers who judge that that level of service is a better deal for them would switch.

To step back a bit, what I posited was only a hypothetical to show how such a choice might limit competition down the line.

To step back even further, your post makes it clear that we have an ideological difference here. I do not view rate-limiting as inherently bad. There is a ceiling above which I would not be willing to pay for a completely unthrottled connection. There also exists a price at which I would be happy to take a throttled connection.

My general preference would be for an unthrottled connection, but my preferences do not exist in a vacuum. The price difference where I would choose the throttled connection would have to be quite large, and the throttled vs unthrottled rates would also come into play.

Further, some of my favorite websites would not be much affected at all. This site, for example places a miniscule load on my connection and minimal data transfer in a month.

I don't generally frequent multimedia sites. I utilize an RSS reader for blogs, so that bandwidth is also fairly minimal (especially if I choose to omit images). Email is text for the most part. A website could compete very well with minimal bandwidth for any of these purposes.

Furthermore, you assume that the bandwidth would be throttled always, and I've gone along with that. There are other rate-limiting strategies that might be chosen. One might be a data transfer cap, beyond which the bandwidth is throttled. Another might be peak-hour throttling, in which case my late-night browsing would be unaffected (and I do a lot of that).

One plan that would be pretty tempting for me is unlimited Netflix and Pandora with a reasonable data cap (I haven't tracked my monthly transfer rates lately so couldn't say what would be reasonable here).

Further, I've not suggested that this be the only plan available. I merely suggested it (hypothetically) as a manner in which a new entrant might gain enough market share to establish itself as a player. The more ISPs there are, the more likely one is to offer service you like. The more you restrict the terms an ISP may offer, the harder it is for them to compete.

I hope this thought process helps clear up where I am coming from.

Finally, I ask whether you consider toll roads immoral, or whether you hold your cable (television) provider responsible for the (production/acting) quality of the television shows you watch, or if you want to stick up for HBO and how downtrodden it is by NBC? The provider of the means of access has no moral imperative to provide equal access to all content.

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