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“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

theguardian.com

71–80 of 136 posts

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#71
post #18

This bit is great: > We’re aware that we are not “having kids”, we’re “breeding”. We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

I don't understand how individuals can bring new, innocent life into this world... With an uncertain economic outlook, or without at least a stable financial base to care for them.

#Edit: I'd honestly like to hear some comments/feedback about the individuals that disagree with what I said above.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, in practice, if you observe around you, people in debt are (very) often the ones with early children, loans, 200$ phone bills and more. I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived…

Are you in the US? Especially since the story is from someone living in the US? > And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived without it for years. You get very few job interviews if you don't have a phone or internet connection (which your phone can help you with). > If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area. Yeah, why doesn't everyone just pack up and move to a strange city with no guarantee o…

> Are you in the US? Especially since the story is from someone living in the US?

I live in France, where gaz is more expensive, and jobs are harder to get. I traveled to the US, I got american friends. I don't think my comparison in unfair.

> You get very few job interviews if you don't have a phone or internet connection (which your phone can help you with).

As I said before, you got your friends with phones and internet connection. You can get free internet connection in many places anyway, and use phone box. But you do realize people had job before we had cellphones and internet ?

Use your social skills. We are a human society, we are supposed to help each others. You are not alone.

> Yeah, why doesn't everyone just pack up and move to a strange city with no guarantee of a job

Yes you can. It's not the big deal everybody says it is. I changed countried. I changed language. Again, it beats staying in a place you can't afford. This idea you should die where you are born is not sane.

> if you can even find one with a better transit system (if you have money for that transit system in the first place) or a bike (if you have money for a bike)

You are talking extrem case. If you can afford 2 kids but not a $20 second hand bike (i Had many), you choose a very, very difficult life. The lady here has TWO kids. You can say she didn't choose the first one, but the second ?

> or walking (if your job prospects are good enough that you can walk to your job - _if_ you can walk in the first place).

Again, extrem case. Be honest, most people in debt are not legless.

> And no, accidental kids are not a good excuse when you got condom, pills, emergency pills and eventually abvortion. My GF had an abvortion once. It was terrible. Still better than having a family in distress.

> Ignoring what happens to people that had kids before they had any problems...

Again, you chose to have kids without creating any kind of buffer in case you have problems. It should not be done. People have kids like it's the "ok thing to do when you are in your 2O'". No, it's not. We are overpopulated, times are hard. Don't make kids until you are sure you can sustain them in the next 20 years, including if you have problems. Your society don't need more kids. Kids are a luxury. I understand you want to have them, but if you do, then get in trouble, you are responsible.

> Because we don't also have a reproductive health crisis with Republicans trying to do away with abortions and very, very expensive condoms, pills, and emergency pills?

Try is the proper word here. Cause last time I check, you can get condom for free very easily in any city.

> Do you know how much that costs? The time? The actual money? Plan B is around $50.

Yes, and it's not supposed to happens often. Twice in your life, $100. If more, again, you are responsible. I think $100 on 20 years is ok.

> Pills (if they even work for you, which they don't for many women) can skyrocket even with insurance - and often they require a doctor's visit too which costs even more.

Yes, that's expensive in the US and not in france. Goes for condom.

> Condoms? Free if you can find a place that has them for free, which is the difficult part.

Difficult ? Try most universities. Done.

> Abortion? Don't even get me started on the timing and money required for that.

It happens once in a while to one out 100 persons. Provided it happens to, and you already got not enough money to pay for it, and you have nothing you can save on in the 3 month you got to deal with it (it's starting to be some kind of bad luck, but let'ts play with the idea).You got 3 months to deal with it and find the money. You got help, programs, friends, associations. It's true it's harder, but you can do it. You are responsible for it.

And again, you are picking extrem case. When I had the abvortion with my GF, she was an illegal immigrant with no job nor money and I was a broke from the mali war. We dealt with it. Stop finding excuses for everything.

> Yes, people are responsible for their debts. That doesn't mean we treat them like shit,

I don't. Saying "you are responsible for that" is not treating them like shit. Not careing is not treating them like shit. I just speak my mind about what I think of this situation. I think it's a human thing to do.

> and that doesn't mean we can't have some kind of safety net/help for them.

Indeed. Society should be organised to prevent this to happend, then help when it failed. It's not incompatible with my personnal feeling about it as an individual.

> Everyone fucks up at some point or another, or shit happens. It's just easier for more privileged people to deal with that without losing everything they have.

I think all the poeple that downvoted my were more privileged that I was.

> This may be a very American problem, but hahahaha. Have you tried going without anything but the bare minimum to pay off $xx,xxx in medical bills - if you're lucky - after negotiating it down? One single relatively minor health problem/accident - or a major one with decent insurance - might be doable. Good luck with anything else though.

Man, I had malaria in Africa without health insurance. Don't even try, you can't compare.

> My middle class father is probably currently googling to figure out how to divorce my mother because his medical bills have risen in the past year despite being on Medicare+the best supplemental insurance on the market.

How did he get that medical bill ? Accident ? Disease ? How much responsible of his health is he ? If he is not, how statistically likely his situation can apply to people in general ?but

Quite the contrary. As long as people don't realize consomming, having kids and living the life we live is not a good bet on the future, society will be in trouble.

I'm not against helping people. I want people to take responsibility for their situtation. You are not a aids infected legless orphan in Senegal.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#73

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

Frankly, yes. But since I can do nothing about a person's luck, I do what I can for the person themselves.

And I do that by simply doing the same things which were done for me. When I can afford to, I will freely give money to someone who is down on their luck (I've paid many a utility bill these past few years). I recommend people for jobs and guide them on getting the skills which will pay. I open my house to people who need it, letting them stay as long as necessary to get back on their feet.

It's not much, but it's something (and more importantly, it's something I actually have the power to do). And in my limited experience, it's helped.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight o…

I'm going to call bullshit on this, as I currently rest well above a single order of magnitude beyond minimum wage. Life is awesome. I own a business. We have health coverage. We eat high quality nutrient rich food. We take our 4 kids to a lake house for a month every year. I work when I feel like it. We travel globally. I've got more options than I ever thought possible. Sure, sitting around getting loaded smoking c…

Okay, but if you can afford not to work ("I work when I feel like it") you're not in the middle class, you're upper class. Compared to solidly middle class people, your life is also much better.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#75
post #15
post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

Sometimes I think poor people have a better grasp of statistics than the people who criticize them. If you're a poor kid in the inner city, it's totally rational not to study hard in school. Because even if you're one of the rare success stories that graduates and finishes college, odds are "college" means some third-tier school that's going to jump you into a job market where the majority of fresh graduates are unem…

Learning will help you in life. I'm not sure kids need a better reason to study and try to do well in school. Knowledge is power and all that. Not going to college doesn't negate that. Hell, I didn't and I'm sure tons of people on HN didn't even do college and I'm doing very well. I'm grateful for the public education system and the "free" education I recieved.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#76
post #57
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amused that your comment is getting voted down, ostensibly by people who don't agree. I'll go much farther than you did and say defeatism is for losers. I don't mean that as a judgement, but as a statement of fact. You'll never get ahead when you don't see a point. Life is mostly a mental game. A serious problem for a lot of people (beyond the poor) is that they spend far more cognitive time thinking about how to…

Beyond the poor that's a feature, not a bug. If you hate your life and you're not having it objectively terrible then it's your mind that's the problem. Objectively improving your life will do nothing. And defeatism may well be unreasonable, but who claimed otherwise? That it's bad is obvious, and stating it helps nobody. Even the author of the article knows it's bad and wrong but does it anyway.

I disagree. Taking right action and objectively improving your life will make you feel better.

Actions affect emotion. Just like the action of smiling itself has been proven to make you happier, taking steps to make your life better will impact your feelings about it.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#77
post #61
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that? All the evidence I've ever seen shows a significant payoff to college education. E.g. https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c... (which breaks things down by race, which should be a good proxy for coming from a disadvantaged background).

Please re-read what you just wrote about race and consider whether it might have interpretations other than the one you intended. To me you seem to be asserting that race is a priori indicative of socioeconomic status, rather than the (likely intended, but more nuanced) assertion that a larger portion of minority children will come from lower-earning households. Second, I don't necessarily accept the argument that "p…

>Please re-read what you just wrote about race and consider whether it might have interpretations other than the one you intended. To me you seem to be asserting that race is a priori indicative of socioeconomic status, rather than the (likely intended, but more nuanced) assertion that a larger portion of minority children will come from lower-earning households.

The point is simply that the article tells us something about how the benefits of education vary with socioeconomic status, even though it doesn't directly measure it. People might also be interested in the direct effect of race too, even though no one brought it up so far.

>Second, I don't necessarily accept the argument that "people who go to college make more money" proves that "college is a good investment". For example, this study found that direct transfer of assets and emulation of behaviors exhibited by wealthy parents had a much stronger contribution to the lifetime earnings of children than education level: http://www.nber.org/papers/w9314

I'm very familiar with this literature, I just any studies at hand that correct for this effect. Also, unless I missed it in the body of the article, the article is not measuring the effect of education per se, but the how much education accounts for the elasticity between wealth of parents and wealth of children (i.e. to what extent education explains this effect). I know the results I showed aren't conclusive, they are just all I have on hand. I'm happy to see more evidence on the payoff to education for low SES groups.

>Lastly, the article you posted makes it very clear that the earnings gap for Latinos and African Americans is significant (20% or more) and pervasive no matter what level of education they attain. Yes, but I don't think this really changes the argument.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer.' Not only the startup economy. Brief thought experiment: Imagine two people. Person A is a car mechanic. Person B is a software developer. Neither are employed but both are more skilled and likely more efficient than each other in their respective fields. Despite the fact that A needs a website and B needs an oil change, A and B will likely end…

> Despite the fact that A needs a website and B needs an oil change, A and B will likely end up performing the work themselves, not because they enjoy it, but because they can't afford to pay each other. If they don't have dollars, they can pay each other in IOUs (which aren't divisible, but otherwise would work fine).

Well, that's basically what credit is. You expect to be paid in the future, so you can buy things now.

Affordability is about more than simply having some means to pay, though.

I often struggle to find a word that fits well here.

The dictionary defines afford to mean: 'to be able to do, manage, or bear without serious consequence or adverse effect'.

By that standard, some people who can't afford to go to college actually do. The means are available via loans, but there are serious consequences and they will be saddled with large amounts of debt. So what's the term for that?

I don't think 'afford' as a proxy for 'strictly possible' is very useful and I'd be glad to hear of an alternative.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight o…

If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. That being said, I still believe you're underestimating just how much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income. I personally have very clear memories of the years where I worried constantly about finding and keeping enough work to pay rent, left p…

> If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you.

I guess maybe I'm just not allocating my money intelligently, but it really doesn't feel like my life is much better than "poor" young people.

My university friends who survive on a $4000/semester stipend don't seem any less happy or contented than me. If anything, more so.

> much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income.

Admittedly, I don't really worry about the effect of losing my job. I could probably sustain myself for a few years off my savings.

But, on the flip side, having a "professional" job is also much more all-encompassing. I doubt people working at McDonalds frequently wake up with thoughts about new strategic directions and methods for flipping burgers, but I am. In exchange for the stability which a high salary brings, I'm always thinking about work.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#80
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody gives enough thought to depression. You have to understand that we know that we will never not feel tired. We will never feel hopeful. We will never get a vacation.

The fact that you answered me with this quote confirms something that I suspected but wasn't sure enough to put down in my first post: The author is being unclear about whether the statements she's making are things she claims are true, or things she claims poor people (incorrectly) think are true. These are two very different things, and mixing them together leads to confusion and error.

I feel like she was pretty clear on that point; the whole first post was her explanation of what she was thinking/feeling when she made 'poor' decisions. The second portion, in response to criticism, was her justification of that mindset.
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