Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 136 posts

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#11

Post by bdcravens »

swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

I grew up in a roach-infested, food stamp family. My dad was a janitor. Mom didn't work; she has (undiagnosed) mental issues. Home experience was filth and cigarette smoke. We had no car. Sent home dozens of times for head lice while in school.

Today I'm a developer and am upper middle-class, some years making what my dad made in 10-15 years.

That said, I still fight feelings of being poor. It's a mindset, not a bank account balance.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#12

Post by chaostheory »

jessaustin wrote: post #8
chaostheory wrote: post #2

> The closest Planned Parenthood [family planning clinic] to me is three hours. > Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

Nobody likes poor people procreating, but... Don't go by what they say or how they act: from the decisions they make, it's clear that TPTB derive a great deal of value from the existence of vast and increasing numbers of poor people. Sure, they'd probably prefer to just impoverish more of the middle class, but the procreation of the poor works as well.

To better understand her writing, you have to think of it as "how poor people feel", and not whether or not it fully reflects reality. Also depending in what part of the country you live, you will be judged harshly for abortion (and not just by the lower class); even in many parts of California. People tend to forget that the only liberal parts of CA are the SF Bay Area and the LA metro.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#13

Post by swatow »

chaostheory wrote: post #4
swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

> Nobody gives enough thought to depression. You have to understand that we know that we will never not feel tired. We will never feel hopeful. We will never get a vacation.

The fact that you answered me with this quote confirms something that I suspected but wasn't sure enough to put down in my first post: The author is being unclear about whether the statements she's making are things she claims are true, or things she claims poor people (incorrectly) think are true.

These are two very different things, and mixing them together leads to confusion and error.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#14

Post by swatow »

mrow84 wrote: post #10
swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

I think a more charitable interpretation of the author statements are that she has an overwhelming feeling that she will never not be poor, and that feeling causes her to make poor decisions, rather than believing that it is an inevitability in an intellectual sense. As the author suggests to, in the quote provided by chaostheory, this is akin to, or perhaps actually is, depression. That knowledge that this "feeling"…

Going with what your interpretation, I would consider wording it like that to be obfuscation by the author. The author is clearly arguing from a left wing viewpoint, and wants to emphasize lack of social mobility. Fine, but then the author is using an exaggerated and wrong feeling to emphasize this point, even though reality might not be that bad.

Like you say, if people do feel like this then it's important to understand it. But there is a big difference politically between saying poor people feel unable to improve their situation, and that poor people actually are unable to improve their situation.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#15

Post by rayiner »

swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

Sometimes I think poor people have a better grasp of statistics than the people who criticize them. If you're a poor kid in the inner city, it's totally rational not to study hard in school. Because even if you're one of the rare success stories that graduates and finishes college, odds are "college" means some third-tier school that's going to jump you into a job market where the majority of fresh graduates are unemployed.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#16

Post by joelhooks »

When our first son was born 17 years ago I was making $10/h. My wife got WIC, and used medicaid. We told the government that she lived with her mom and that I was a deadbeat. We needed the help, and my low-wage job would have been prohibitive. $10/h actually wasn't too bad in '98 for a single dude. I had an apartment, ate, had utilities paid, with enough left over for beer, weed and cigarettes.

It was rough, but definitely not hopeless. Not all of the decisions we made were good (lol, by a long ways), but enough of them were.

I never expected to be poor forever, which makes a huge difference. There were spans of depression where I felt like giving in and just accepting my lot in life, but punched through and kept grinding. Thankful for that.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#17

Post by falcolas »

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person.

Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money.

Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same minimum wage jobs and living hand to mouth.

However, having crossed that line in both directions has also made me aware that even with all of that, I'm still only a few months of unemployment away from being homeless again. I only hope that the startup I work for doesn't go under, and that if it does I can find another good paying job.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#18

Post by rayiner »

This bit is great:

> We’re aware that we are not “having kids”, we’re “breeding”. We have kids for much the same reasons that I imagine rich people do. Urge to propagate and all. Nobody likes poor people procreating, but they judge abortion even harder.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#19

Post by twisties »

swatow wrote: post #14
mrow84 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a more charitable interpretation of the author statements are that she has an overwhelming feeling that she will never not be poor, and that feeling causes her to make poor decisions, rather than believing that it is an inevitability in an intellectual sense. As the author suggests to, in the quote provided by chaostheory, this is akin to, or perhaps actually is, depression. That knowledge that this "feeling"…

Going with what your interpretation, I would consider wording it like that to be obfuscation by the author. The author is clearly arguing from a left wing viewpoint, and wants to emphasize lack of social mobility. Fine, but then the author is using an exaggerated and wrong feeling to emphasize this point, even though reality might not be that bad. Like you say, if people do feel like this then it's important to under…

> there is a big difference politically between saying poor people feel unable to improve their situation, and that poor people actually are unable to improve their situation.

When the feeling of hopelessness cripples you into a self-fulfilling prophecy, the two are one and the same.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#20

Post by swatow »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #7
swatow wrote: post #3

>I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing? It's not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn't that I blow five bucks at Wendy's. It's that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ev…

What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food. Or spend the money today on some burgers and a DVD for the kids. Get hugs and kisses and a full belly. Poor people aren't stupid. You seem to think they are. She may go to sc…

>What's the point of saving? One car crash and it's wiped out. You save and delay the gratification, but it never comes. You save and save and save, then some bad luck wipes it out. You lose a job. A vet bill. A friend needs a room and some food.

That is ridiculous. If you hadn't saved and you had the car crash, then you would have been carless. Instead you were able to use to car

>Poor people aren't stupid. You seem to think they are. Why do you think that I think poor people are stupid? Do I literally have to agree with everything any poor person says to avoid this kind of cheap shot?

I agree that the payoff from education may be a gamble, but it was just an example of the many ways people can become better off.

Post reply on HN