“Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#61

Post by rcoder » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

swatow wrote: post #46

rayiner wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I think poor people have a better grasp of statistics than the people who criticize them. If you're a poor kid in the inner city, it's totally rational not to study hard in school. Because even if you're one of the rare success stories that graduates and finishes college, odds are "college" means some third-tier school that's going to jump you into a job market where the majority of fresh graduates are unem…

Are you sure about that? All the evidence I've ever seen shows a significant payoff to college education. E.g. https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c... (which breaks things down by race, which should be a good proxy for coming from a disadvantaged background).

Please re-read what you just wrote about race and consider whether it might have interpretations other than the one you intended. To me you seem to be asserting that race is a priori indicative of socioeconomic status, rather than the (likely intended, but more nuanced) assertion that a larger portion of minority children will come from lower-earning households.

Second, I don't necessarily accept the argument that "people who go to college make more money" proves that "college is a good investment". For example, this study found that direct transfer of assets and emulation of behaviors exhibited by wealthy parents had a much stronger contribution to the lifetime earnings of children than education level: http://www.nber.org/papers/w9314

Lastly, the article you posted makes it very clear that the earnings gap for Latinos and African Americans is significant (20% or more) and pervasive no matter what level of education they attain.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#62

Post by intopieces » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #28

sametmax wrote: post #23

I started to read "cell phone", "car" and "kids" and stopped caring. I started with very few money. Then I manage to have my own company. Then I got broken after the war in Mali. And when you are young with no money, you don't need a cell phone, you don't need a car, and you don't make children. You get your life in order, then you go for the expensive stuff. People think it's normal to have these. Guys, it's not eve…

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based i…

"intellectually lazy" is the correct term, even a bit polite. The idea behind this discussion is to look at why people are poor and to find ways - real, concrete, actionable ways - to improve the situation for the poor. Judgements based on personal experience do not fit within this discussion because they are entirely beside the point.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#63

Post by twisties » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

twisties wrote: post #22

falcolas wrote: post #17

I feel stupidly lucky that I got to where I am today. I was living in a friend's apartment with about $100 in "savings" and no job prospects in a town where I knew one person. Now, I own a house, work as a software developer and get paid nearly stupid amounts of money. Luck, a few good people (Brian, we still appreciate the $100!), and a natural affinity for computers are all that separate me from working those same…

Do you feel the need to remedy this injustice, when, as you claim, the difference between you and a poor person is luck?

Not sure how to interpret the pounding of downvotes.

Do others feel that no injustice exists in a situation where comfortable living and hopeless suffering are deemed products by luck?

Is it a disagreement that the GP's situation is based on luck (I never made that claim, GP did)?

Is it disagreement that people living comfortably based on self-admitted luck should concern themselves with those who perpetually suffer because they weren't as lucky?

Something else I'm oblivious to?

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#64

Post by nitrogen » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #31

mercer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that whenever I'm inclined to unsympathetic to the experience of another person, it's best to stop and remind myself that most people try their best to be good and happy, and care for those that are close to them, and that perhaps I'm just missing something. In this particular case, I'd argue that in many areas of the USA, cars are not a luxury, they're essential to moving around in the (to me) odd car-based i…

In theory yes, in practice, if you observe around you, people in debt are (very) often the ones with early children, loans, 200$ phone bills and more. I've seen plenty people having money problems, even caused by health problems or accidents. The ones to get out of it are the ones that stop spending in materials everybody else claim are mandatory untill they get better. And no, a cell phone is not mandatory. I lived…

If you are in an area requireing a car, move in another area.

Unfortunately in the US, areas that don't require a car are so much more expensive that you would be paying more not to have a car.

A lot of the reactions to poverty that would fix it have an "activation energy" that may not be available.

We must also always remember that dualistic free will is an illusion.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#65

Post by ahomescu1 » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 8:59 PM UTC

stegosaurus wrote: post #58

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Across a population this kind of 'bad luck' can have huge economic costs, and is a massive drag on innovation and productivity. It's not just about personal stories. Falcolas might not have been able to borrow $100, and would likely have ended up somewhere very different. And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer. You might think 'There are others' - and you'd be right. But the effects s…

'And the startup economy would have been down by one potential developer.' Not only the startup economy. Brief thought experiment: Imagine two people. Person A is a car mechanic. Person B is a software developer. Neither are employed but both are more skilled and likely more efficient than each other in their respective fields. Despite the fact that A needs a website and B needs an oil change, A and B will likely end…

> Despite the fact that A needs a website and B needs an oil change, A and B will likely end up performing the work themselves, not because they enjoy it, but because they can't afford to pay each other.

If they don't have dollars, they can pay each other in IOUs (which aren't divisible, but otherwise would work fine).

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#66

Post by joelhooks » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #54

rcoder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're making an order of magnitude more than minimum wage that puts you at $72.50 per hour, or about $145k per year. That might not sound like a lot to the regulars on this site, but it's almost triple the median US household income ($52k) and should put you comfortably in the middle class in almost any developed part of the world. You also probably don't have to worry about getting sick or injured (health insura…

To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight o…

I'm going to call bullshit on this, as I currently rest well above a single order of magnitude beyond minimum wage. Life is awesome. I own a business. We have health coverage. We eat high quality nutrient rich food. We take our 4 kids to a lake house for a month every year. I work when I feel like it. We travel globally. I've got more options than I ever thought possible.

Sure, sitting around getting loaded smoking cigarettes is Fun. This is better. A lot better.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#67

Post by bdcravens » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

dizzystar wrote: post #59

bdcravens wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a roach-infested, food stamp family. My dad was a janitor. Mom didn't work; she has (undiagnosed) mental issues. Home experience was filth and cigarette smoke. We had no car. Sent home dozens of times for head lice while in school. Today I'm a developer and am upper middle-class, some years making what my dad made in 10-15 years. That said, I still fight feelings of being poor. It's a mindset, not a bank…

That said, I still fight feelings of being poor. It's a mindset, not a bank account balance. This is very true. Even though I have money these days, I still own very little. I just don't recognize the need to own anything valuable, have no desire to own property, nor feel the need to eat at a fine restaurant. Even though I can afford Starbucks with no problems, I still feel like it is an "expensive" place. The last t…

I'm probably the opposite. Growing up I did without, and saw those who had, and longing for the things and the experiences other had. Today I spend recklessly, always having new things... if the new iPhone comes out and someone has it when I don't, 10 year old me who didn't get new toys for Christmas rises to the surface a bit, and I feel inferior. Stupid, I know, but it's there.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#68

Post by ahomescu1 » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 9:01 PM UTC

gargarplex wrote: post #39

dchest wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a loaded question. Where is injustice?

Social inequality without serving a conscious purpose

I think the fundamental question here is: what is the natural state, equality or inequality? If inequality is the natural state (which I think it is), it can't be a "purpose", it just exists.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#69

Post by zo1 » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 9:02 PM UTC

mjfl wrote: post #55

gargarplex wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social inequality without serving a conscious purpose

I think there's a disease that infects modern thought that attributes any success to "dumb luck". It makes the pursuit of a better life seem pointless and social inequality seem like an injustice we must point the government at to remedy. I don't think this is a new thought, just the modern flavor of a cycle that repeats itself every century or so. Find the rich man, the jew, the doctor. Sack his residence and take a…

And the premise that underlies that whole thing: It's unfair due to the wealthy having an unfair advantage because of their wealth. It's the easy answer to a chicken/egg problem, one that suits the agenda. The problem being which came first, wealth or whatever it is that "gives" wealth. Ambition, dedication, drive, charisma, you name it.

Re: “Poor people don’t plan long-term. We’ll just get our hearts broken”

#70

Post by rcoder » Sun, Jan 25, 2015, 9:06 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #54

rcoder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're making an order of magnitude more than minimum wage that puts you at $72.50 per hour, or about $145k per year. That might not sound like a lot to the regulars on this site, but it's almost triple the median US household income ($52k) and should put you comfortably in the middle class in almost any developed part of the world. You also probably don't have to worry about getting sick or injured (health insura…

To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight o…

If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. That being said, I still believe you're underestimating just how much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income.

I personally have very clear memories of the years where I worried constantly about finding and keeping enough work to pay rent, left problems with my health unaddressed because I couldn't afford to fix them, and stayed in a bad relationship because my partner had a place to me to stay and a car I could take to job interviews.

If you had asked me then I would have said my life was fine b/c I had friends, plenty of cheap beer, and didn't really know any better. Now that I'm also solidly in the middle class and can afford luxuries like an entire house I share with just my wife, regular meals out, and leisure travel I would describe those years as "strained" and "challenging" at best.