N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say • Hacker News Board

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#111

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:32 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #106

realusername wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is saying that North Korea is a bloody dictatorship where people are starving to death. Medias, scientists, tourists who were there (yes, you can actually go there), geopoliticians, ... There is just some evidence everywhere. There is no conspiracy about North Korea and this has nothing to do with capitalism. They have giant statues of their leader and a massive painting of him in the most prestigious place…

>> "They have giant statues of their leader and a massive painting of him in the most prestigious place of the country." I'm sorry. I agree NK is a horrible place but that reasoning is ridiculous. Every heard of the Lincoln Memorial [0] or the Lansdowne portrait [1]. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Memorial [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_portrait Edit: Just realised you may have been using sarcas…

> On official articles, the leader is mentioned everywhere.

Washington Post? ;).

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#112

Post by 1stop » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:43 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #53

toufka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

You aren't exhibiting a finally tuned sense of ethics.

Exactly which ethical principle(s) are you following?

This seems like a 5 minutes of thought kind of solution to an incredibly complex problem.

North Korea can buy/steal/grow the knowledge they need. They already have nukes, and are working on missiles. I think the notion that we should sanction education (on top of the existing sanctions) is just playing by the already broken playbook we (the rest of the world) have been to date. We are feeding their propaganda machine on how evil we are.

Just a question, how is the DPRK any MORE evil than other states the US happily does business with? (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China, etc) What in particular makes them evil?

I agree that it is a messed up situation and some horrible shit is going on. But I also have a feeling we are being manipulated by the media.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#113

Post by laumars » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:48 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #72

akg_67 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive." It is the same argument made by nuclear non-proliferation countries. Only responsible countries should own the nuclear weapons. Well, guess how that argument turned out. The only country to use nuclear weapon is the one calls itself responsible one. Along…

Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's. > Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace enginee…

> Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's.

Has it though?

Between now and WWII you've still had several -arguably illegal- wars such as Iraq and Vietnam (and not to mention the cold war with Russia and tensions with Cuba and China). You've had a president assassinated. You've had more than 2 decades of racial segregation; and yet more assassinations (this time of figureheads who campaigned for equality such as Martin Luther King). You've have gun laws that most of the rest of the developed world considers right wing. You have your own breed of religious fanatics - which is so riff that election candidates have to prove to believe in God just stand a chance at becoming president. Then there's the NSA leaks - a whole essay could be written just referencing that organisation alone. And don't get me started on the xenophobic beliefs that the likes of Fox News spreads.

From an outsiders perspective looking in, America hasn't looked too respectful to either it's own nationals nor other countries in the decades following the second world war. So it really doesn't surprise me that many outside of the west might consider the US (and Europe) as bloodthirsty.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#114

Post by 1stop » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:52 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #103

arcameron wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've massively devalued an entire people based on the actions of their government... Let's not forget the great value and results of CS education in the US: - spying for pretty much everybody, regardless of location - drone guidance systems to kill people unlawfully - missile systems for air strikes on countries purported to have WMDs - millions of $ spent on silly apps that arguably do nothing to improve q…

Given it spends around a third of its GDP on military activities, and is a thoroughly planned economy it seems a relatively straightforward inference to make.

Lets quote % of GDP when talking about a country with negligible GDP... honest!

If what you say is true: DPRK spends $3 billion (approx) on military.

It's neighbours spend the following:

China: $150 billion (approx) South Korea: $33 billion (approx) Japan: $50 billion (approx)

Lets not forget that South Korea and Japan are satellites for the US, and a conflict would involve them: $640 billion (approx).

So their spending is at least 10x less than their cheapest neighbour.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#115

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #53

toufka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

>To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turbine engineering? Teaching any of these would probably increase North Korea's ability to threaten and harm its people and the rest of the world. It's sad that this is the case, but it's hard to argue otherwise.

How's NK different from the US to that regard?

You know, the one country among those two that actually blasted two civilian cities with atomic bombs, sprayed Agent Orange over Vietnam, and has chronically had leaders who "speak with god"...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#116

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 12:56 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #86

kimjonsegfault wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to Chi…

Yes, and European fascism was okay because the trains were always on time.

Well, the US didn't have much issue with European fascism in Spain, or with supporting fascism in Chile and otherwhere in Lat. Am., not to mention the horrendous state that Saudi Arabia is...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#117

Post by shutupalready » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 1:04 PM UTC

> General Clapper praised the food; his hosts later presented him with a bill for his share of the meal.

Not only are they evil, but they're cheap too.

But the fact is that the hosts would have billed for the meal because the U.S. government asked to be billed.

The USG requires that officials traveling on business not accept gratuities, gifts, dinners, or anything above a certain value (which is about US$100 -- it gets adjusted for inflation, so it might be higher today).[1]

There is an exemption to allow acceptance of gifts of travel expenses of more $100 when officials travel outside the United States on business, but only if "such acceptance is appropriate, consistent with the interests of the United States, and permitted by the employing agency".[1]

In this case, General Clapper and his staff probably didn't want to deal with the question of whether it was "appropriate" or deal with reporting requirements, so they just asked for the bill. Or, their North Korean hosts, knowing U.S. policy, were proactive in making up a bill.

Either way, the NYT article should have mentioned the USG policy. If they can't get that little thing right, it makes me wonder about the accuracy of the rest of the article.

[1] http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title5/html/USCODE-...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#118

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 1:04 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#119

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 1:06 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #57

thejosh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that same argument can be made for pretty much any other country... why teach computer science to US, as they have shown they can't be trusted - they will probably end up in the NSA!

Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people. They imprison, torture, and execute their citizens for being related to someone who watched South Korean television. It is quite likely the most harmful regime on the planet. Read some stories from North Korean defectors. Then let me know just how content you are with people contributing to the DPR…

>The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive.

Spoken like a true patriot.

In actual life, most of the world hates the US interventions (too numerous to mention, including toppling legitimate leaders and installing friendly to the US dictators) and invasions (from Phillipines back in the day, to Korea and Vietnam and on to Bush's wars).

Besides South Korea, and if that, nobody has much to fear from North Korea, an insignificant provincial state that 99% of the time deals with its own issues.

Compare that to a hypocritical world "cop", dealing BS "democracy" all around the globe (e.g. mostly ruining previously stable countries to get rid of dictators it doesn't like, while doing business with or helping install dictators it does like elsewhere) to serve its interests.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#120

Post by estefan » Mon, Jan 19, 2015, 1:25 PM UTC

chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

> or network/server subversion. > > I'm not saying this software shouldn't exist...

The world would be a better place if subversion didn't exist. As long as the North Koreans keep using it they won't get very far. Maybe Will Scott is funded by the CIA if he's promoting that over git...