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N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#71

Post by xordon »

turk- wrote: post #55
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

Do you really think Will Scott gave the DRPK the breakthroughs it needed in any of those areas? I think you would be delusional to think he set them up to significantly improve in these areas. The only thing holding the DRPK back is the fact the socio-economic situation in the country is in complete shambles. Not that lack of American Computer Science teachers. Plus, More than likely he (and others like him) are prov…

DPRK

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#72

Post by chroma »

akg_67 wrote: post #65
chroma wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing the NSA to North Korea? This is a country that starves and kills millions of its own people. They imprison, torture, and execute their citizens for being related to someone who watched South Korean television. It is quite likely the most harmful regime on the planet. Read some stories from North Korean defectors. Then let me know just how content you are with people contributing to the DPR…

"The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive." It is the same argument made by nuclear non-proliferation countries. Only responsible countries should own the nuclear weapons. Well, guess how that argument turned out. The only country to use nuclear weapon is the one calls itself responsible one. Along…

Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's.

> Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering and medical or any subject because they all can be used as "weapon" for nefarious purposes.

Except for medicine, probably yes. See my other comment for why I think that is the case.[1]

> Keeping the population of a country uneducated because you don't agree with the government running the country is discriminatory and racist. No person irrespective of race or belief or country of citizenship should be denied education.

How is it racist? I have no ethical issues with South Koreans or North Korean defectors learning these things. I'm simply pointing out a concrete example of how, in some cases, education can be harmful on net. Simplifying it to, "Education is good." won't steer you wrong often. But when it does, the consequences can be horrific.

And to say one doesn't agree with the DPRK is putting it far too mildly. Read Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea.[2] The stories will make you thankful to be in whatever country you live in. For many people, North Korea truly is hell on earth. It's far worse than anything Orwell wrote about.

If the leaders of the DPRK could get away with it, they would rain fire on South Korea and the US tomorrow. The only thing stopping them is lack of ability. Educating their citizens helps them gain technology that will most likely be used to achieve the goals of the DPRK's leaders. That will almost certainly lead to more harm than good.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8910491

2. http://www.amazon.com/Nothing-Envy-Ordinary-Lives-North-eboo...

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#73

Post by sandworm »

timmytokyo wrote: post #6

According to the article, NSA noticed the first spear-phishing attacks against Sony in September. Yet they didn't realize admin credentials had been stolen until much later. Nor did they seem to notice terabytes of data being exfiltrated out of Sony. Fishy story.

Why would they notice terabytes leaving Sony? It's a motion picture studio. They surely have piles of film-related data flowing constantly in and out of all sorts of places. And it's not like the hackers sent it directly to Pyongyang.

As a member of the MPAA, probably the most hated organization in the history of the internet, I'm surprised that Sony wasn't under constant phishing attack. Given their total lack of internal security, I would have thought some angry filesharers would have broken in long ago.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#74

Post by Nanzikambe »

chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

How do you feel about the proliferation of postnatal health education and its associated literature?

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#75

Post by meowface »

sandworm wrote: post #60

Anyone else notice this: "We realized there was another actor [South Korea] that was also going against them [North Korea] and having great success because of a 0 day they wrote. We got the 0 day out of passive and were able to re-purpose it. Big win." NSA learned of a 0-day exploit being used by South Korea (not five eyes) and re-purposed it. They had knowledge of an exploit in the wild. Did they share this with any…

Well, it depends on how the exploit was being used and who was being targeted.

If SK was only using it to target, say, Iran and NK, then it would not be in the NSA's interest to disclose the exploit to anyone. Only if they had reason to believe it could be targeting Five Eyes governments or corporations would they feel any need to.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#76

Post by meowface »

xnull2guest wrote: post #56
wglb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I hear "sophisticated" in the context of a breach, I think "we weren't paying attention"

There is absolutely differing levels of sophistication in cyber attacks. The presence of new exploits, clever persistence mechanisms, evidence of a staged attack involving multiple targets (i.e. attacking a company through a compromised vendor, using a certificate from a prior breach), ability to break out of security boundaries like hypervisors, custom malware, jumping of air gaps, handling of multi-factor authentic…

Yep, exactly.

Stuxnet was sophisticated.

The Sony hack likely wasn't. Though it was done by a persistent and patient group of attackers.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#77

Post by usbreply »

chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

Stuxnet.

American kids should not be allowed to get a computer science education.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#78

Post by meowface »

usbreply wrote: post #77
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

Stuxnet. American kids should not be allowed to get a computer science education.

The problem is that a skilled programmer in North Korea may be forced into a government role where they will likely perform unethical work.

In the US, the person must voluntarily choose to pursue such a role. (Though I would not consider Stuxnet unethical.)

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#79

Post by kimjonsegfault »

chroma wrote: post #53
toufka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

What's scary is the level of your indoctrination. North Korea has been surviving decades in almost complete world isolation, because it opposes capitalism. It's not mordor, it's a society with a structure that is not compatible with western capitalism. Everything you think you know about has been filtered to hide any positive aspects of such a society and to exacerbate the negatives. This was done to Vietname, to China, USSR. This was done to Obama during the healthcare "debate".

North Korea has withstood decades of economic isolation, and yet it lives and its people live much better than citizens of Somalia and other great capitalist nations, not that anyone would let you know. You're not freeing North Korea by isolating it and starving it, you are killing it, and the people. You say it doesn't tame much to control many, but this applies to the West as much as it does anywhere. You have a set of values, and you are in harmony with enough people, you can work for them, with them. The same applies in North Korea, and USSR (where I'm from). The country is a single company, the CEO might be eccentric, but people do have jobs, work hard, have education, healthcare and believe in communism. What they don't have is Hollywood, McDonnalds and Fox News. And this is why you want to "free them". They have nuclear weapons not because they are evil, but because they know what US does to countries people like you believe need to be freed.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#80

Post by Estragon »

comex wrote: post #34
Estragon wrote: post #15

Typical for the NYT to bury the strong countervailing evidence against the official war-mongering story in a couple of paragraphs 2/3rds of the way through the article. Still, the sophistication of the Sony hack was such that many experts say they are skeptical that North Korea was the culprit, or the lone culprit. They have suggested it was an insider, a disgruntled Sony ex-employee or an outside group cleverly mimi…

Typical for Hacker News posters (in general) to dislike the United States government so much that, despite having complained and worried and speculated about the sophistication of the NSA's online snooping for the last year in a half, they assume that the government couldn't possibly have obtained any evidence they didn't want to release to the public, instead trusting the high certainty of experts who have decided t…

> Yes, yes, WMDs in Iraq.

The USG has lied like a rug about the causus belli and operations of most of its major military adventures since WWII.

If they had convincing evidence of NK involvement, they would find a way to share it without further compromising the collection method. Since the Snowden leaks, every non Anglo Saxon government in the world has had to assume the NSA has its hand up the ass of its IT infrastructure.

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