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N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#101

Post by kabouseng »

chroma wrote: post #72
akg_67 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The chance that an American programmer will work on software harmful to humanity is quite small. The chance that a North Korean programmer will do so is massive." It is the same argument made by nuclear non-proliferation countries. Only responsible countries should own the nuclear weapons. Well, guess how that argument turned out. The only country to use nuclear weapon is the one calls itself responsible one. Along…

Your line about nuclear proliferation is a total non-sequitur. The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years. You might as well call the US hypocritical for backing UN resolutions against racism because of segregation up to the 60's. > Along the lines of your argument, DPRK citizens shouldn't be learning physics, chemistry, mathematics, aerospace enginee…

> The US of 1945 is not the US of today. Our ethics and standards have risen significantly in the past 65 years.

Except the US has been in constant perpetual war since 1943...and not all of these wars have been in good faith either.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#102

Post by psykovsky »

arcameron wrote: post #54
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

I think you've massively devalued an entire people based on the actions of their government... Let's not forget the great value and results of CS education in the US: - spying for pretty much everybody, regardless of location - drone guidance systems to kill people unlawfully - missile systems for air strikes on countries purported to have WMDs - millions of $ spent on silly apps that arguably do nothing to improve q…

As an European I say we should stop the US from learning. They're getting dangerous, with their knowledge.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#103

Post by cmdkeen »

arcameron wrote: post #54
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

I think you've massively devalued an entire people based on the actions of their government... Let's not forget the great value and results of CS education in the US: - spying for pretty much everybody, regardless of location - drone guidance systems to kill people unlawfully - missile systems for air strikes on countries purported to have WMDs - millions of $ spent on silly apps that arguably do nothing to improve q…

Given it spends around a third of its GDP on military activities, and is a thoroughly planned economy it seems a relatively straightforward inference to make.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#104

Post by Shivetya »

toufka wrote: post #46
chroma wrote: post #27

> Mr. Jang said that as time went on, the North began diverting high school students with the best math skills into a handful of top universities, including a military school specializing in computer-based warfare called Mirim University, which he attended as a young army officer. I realize I'm not engaging the core topic being discussed, but stories like this are why I'm surprised people like Will Scott haven't gott…

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

Perhaps we should consider that there are some countries where it is not proper for us to be offering such education? I can name very few countries deserving of nothing more than basic food and medical and North Korea is one of them.

Don't throw the guilt on him or others,their fate is already abysmal because of their government and sending them a few teachers is not going to benefit their society and if its for feels, well they are misdirected and other countries are far more deserving of our time

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#106

Post by k-mcgrady »

realusername wrote: post #99
kimjonsegfault wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North Korea is not a fascist or nationalistic regime. And it's only been turned into a concentration camp by the West through sanctions. It's not even any more antithesis to democracy either. The party members are elected. The institution members are promoted by performance like anywhere else. The 'supreme leader' being some sort of a Sauron is a fantasy. Since you're comparing to Nazi Germany, you should also know t…

Everyone is saying that North Korea is a bloody dictatorship where people are starving to death. Medias, scientists, tourists who were there (yes, you can actually go there), geopoliticians, ... There is just some evidence everywhere. There is no conspiracy about North Korea and this has nothing to do with capitalism. They have giant statues of their leader and a massive painting of him in the most prestigious place…

>> "They have giant statues of their leader and a massive painting of him in the most prestigious place of the country."

I'm sorry. I agree NK is a horrible place but that reasoning is ridiculous. Every heard of the Lincoln Memorial [0] or the Lansdowne portrait [1].

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Memorial

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansdowne_portrait

Edit: Just realised you may have been using sarcasm. If so my mistake.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#107

Post by moe »

chroma wrote: post #53
toufka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

It's important to have a finely-tuned sense of ethics

So when totalitarian regimes apply denial of education, mass surveillance, indefinite detention without trial, then that is evil.

But when the USA does it then it is due to a "finely-tuned sense of ethics"?

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#108

Post by laumars »

kimjonsegfault wrote: post #93
pjc50 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have a free press either, and political or social dissent tends to result in people being "disappeared". And they have rather a lot of artillery pointed at Seoul.

Where was the free press in the lead up to the Iraq war? How would you know of all the 'disappeared'? There very well might be, but just by stating that like a fact, you're repeating something you simply heard in the 'free press', helping spread the narrative. I'm sure there is ideological cleansing there, so is there in any society, especially one under ideological attack. And I'm sure there is way more artillery po…

I have no doubt that western media loves to play up the stereotypes of that region, but having read a few personal accounts from people who have escaped North Korea, those defectors opinions tend to align with a lot of the negative reporting on the DPRK.

North Korean concentration camps, for example, are several orders of magnitude more horrific than the US prison camps you compared them to. And it's significantly easier to end up in an NK concentration camp than it is in prison too.

Families being rounded up and taken away and/or killed is a common theme discussed by the defectors as well.

Now I'm not saying that America (nor any other country for that matter) is perfect. If anything, I happen to agree with you that the US has some hugely hypocritical tendencies. But for all America's faults, the DPRK is still in a whole other of league of bad.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#109

Post by TeMPOraL »

sandworm wrote: post #67
a1a wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I believe education is an excellent way to free the north korean people from the brainwashing machine that is the DPRK. More DPRK people with the hacker mindset (e.g. not just accepting answers but asking questions, a hunger for knowledge, etc) would in the long term be a really great thing for everyone but the leaders of DPRK.

I used to think that way, that education would inevitably lead people to more egalitarian belief structures. Then I spent a few years at school in the US. I met many very educated people (ie well beyond undergrad) that scared the heck out of me. It is very possible to have an advanced CS degree and still believe in a ridged class system.

Yeah. I used to believe technical education will give you a particular outlook at the world, will make you a more careful thinker, etc. I don't believe that anymore. Here are some other things that I've seen going along with a CS degree:

- you can have a CS degree and be a total and utter asshole (for some reason I though education makes people more polite)

- you can have a CS degree and be an antivaxxer who sees vaccines as Illuminati's conspiracy (not joking here)

- you can have a CS degree and not have an ounce of rational thinking in you

- you can have a CS degree and not be able to code your way out of a paper bag

I could list some more, but you get the picture.

Re: N.S.A. Tapped into North Korean Networks Before Sony Attack, Officials Say

#110

Post by yAnonymous »

chroma wrote: post #53
toufka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very scary argument. To deny education because it could be used in ways you may not like is a very unfortunate position to take. Education is likely the only way a system like North Korea's will ever fall short of a militarized take over - another horrible fate to wish on those same people. And were it to fall, an education is all that would permit their survival in the world at large. To deny individuals a…

I agree that it's a scary argument. That's why I was careful in how I put it forth. The problem is that many skills are dual-use. At some point, a threshold is reached where a student is more likely to use the knowledge to harm than to help. This threshold depends on the skill and the student. To use a hypothetical: Would you condone someone teaching particle physics in North Korea? How about biology? Chemistry? Turb…

"Your moral compass is so fucked up, I'll be shocked if you manage to find your way back to the parking lot."
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