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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#81

Post by refurb »

EthanHeilman wrote: post #74
refurb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite. Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?

No biggie. Thermite is a mixture of a metal and a metal oxide, typically aluminum and iron oxide (which is an oxidizer). Thermite specifically converts the iron oxide to iron metal (very exothermic). That's why they use it to repair rail lines, etc.

If you replace the iron oxide with another oxidizer, it's not really thermite (since no iron metal is produced) and it turns it from a very exothermic reaction into an explosion (with the right oxidizer).

They do make thermite grenades, but they are typically used to destroy equipment, not make a loud sound (as flashbangs are).

If the police were using thermite grenades for raids, that would be even more horrifying than it already is.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#82

Post by Aeolun »

I don't think the problem is so much that flashbangs are being thrown, as that they are thrown when storming the house of someone committing the grave crime of illegally selling nachos.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#83

Post by zanny »

girvo wrote: post #27
mikeryan wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a recent case in Albuquerque where 2 police officers are being charged with murder. In the case the police disorient a guy with a flashbang then shoot him as he turns away The police video shows Boyd talking with an officer who was seemingly trying to reach an end to the stalemate. As he picks up his backpack, Boyd tells the officer to keep his word, and not to worry about safety. "I'm not a [f———] murderer,"…

Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...

They don't have to. There are plenty of good cops, but your mileage will vary with the integrity of the local PD. There are these hot beds of systemically bad police precincts and the power structure is organized such that those who could fix it are also those initiating it.

A large contributing factor is the military industrial complex spewing out death tech at an absurd rate, and with nobody to blow up with it all it just goes to police forces at auction. So you end up with towns of a thousand having swat teams and tanks and you wonder why the culture shifts from protecting and serving to war, death, and extortion.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#84

Post by mattstreet »

ColinCochrane wrote: post #4

Bou Bou was sleeping in a portable playpen at the foot of his parents’ bed when the Habersham County Special Response Team broke down the door to the room and threw a flashbang. The grenade landed on a pillow next to Bou Bou’s face. The blast blew a hole in his chest, severed his nose, and tore apart his lips and mouth. That's horrifying. I can't believe that these things are allowed to be used with so little oversig…

The proper military use of flashbangs is to roll them towards the corner of a room or doorway. Not to chuck them into the room where they could land anywhere.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#85

Post by zanny »

knodi123 wrote: post #76
username223 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti.…

why should I take a paycut? if we end the war on drugs, we could pay fewer officers more money to do more effective and humane policing, with more training. win/win/win.

Lose for the prison industry, the pharma industry, the military arms industry, the black market drug industry, and police unions. All of which have huge power, and all of which will continue to bribe to keep the blood money flowing.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#86

Post by DugFin »

username223 wrote: post #17
xeromal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.

When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.

Higher pay doesn't address the problem with cops. They pay cops VERY well in my city, and yet they are still in the news constantly with the same sort of antics. The problem is that the job of law enforcement is BORING. There's simply very little intellectual challenge to driving around all day looking for trouble. Beyond the occasional zen master, you're going to end up with primarily one general kind of person who can tolerate being in law enforcement, and it's not the sort of person who craves sophisticated intellectual stimulation.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#87

Post by zanny »

kassemi wrote: post #68
click170 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that just a band-air for the real problem, which is the general culture of infalibility at many police departments and the shocking lack of training in light of the fact that they've been given military grade toys?

Yes, but we can always try to solve the inconviences of our world in multiple venues. Let's try politics and simultaneously use the ingenuity we have to solve the problem while politics resolves. I'd bet by stopping the water supply (out), disabling wifi and power, we can solve the destruction of evidence issue which could warrant the police actions. Additionally, we could send a robot in place to search for unsafe c…

Biggest issue is that the military suppliers that end up giving local PDs all this war tech are being paid federally on an untouchable military budget. They produce the flashbangs outside market conditions at all and under guaranteed federal contracts, and when the US military doesn't actually need more tanks, APVs, and flashbangs they get raffled off to police departments.

So build your personnel sensing flashbang, these PD's won't get them, they rarely pay for this stuff. Its mostly free, or at least its on a fixed grant they need to spend or lose. There is no real market for a police department to deploy tanks and SWAT in a town of a thousand people.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#88

Post by zanny »

darklajid wrote: post #23
jMyles wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?" Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website,…

I think my main concern was and is: Given this article, the discussion cannot avoid politics. If we're assuming that political discussions might be sensitive and largely depending on your upbringing/local environment etc. etc. this leads to potential conflicts. Technical (or commercial) posts are usually easier to digest and discuss. Posts like this seem to offer no sane way to handle them, or at least I don't see a…

The alternative is ignoring and being ignorant to nonviolent citizens of a foreign country being killed and burned by military grade technology.

You don't have to actually go into the comments section on these things. But besides technical knowledge what are you going to contribute to the non controversial posts? Yes, lambas are great, and a half dozen posts agreeing on that, after an article about good lambda usage?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#89

Post by samspot »

6t6t6 wrote: post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Sometimes people barricade themselves inside the home or have hostages. I had assumed that was the only case where they used flashbangs ... until I read this article. According to the article police can get a no-knock arrest warrant. I don't get why that type of warrant is authorized so frequently. I guess courts are giving the police whatever they ask for.

It seems like cops are afraid of losing their lives, and they think flashbangs protect them. I can understand that thought process. But it doesn't excuse what is happening. I couldn't live with myself if I burned up a baby like they did. Unbelievable that the county won't pay medical bills.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#90

Post by username223 »

DugFin wrote: post #86
username223 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.

Higher pay doesn't address the problem with cops. They pay cops VERY well in my city, and yet they are still in the news constantly with the same sort of antics. The problem is that the job of law enforcement is BORING. There's simply very little intellectual challenge to driving around all day looking for trouble. Beyond the occasional zen master, you're going to end up with primarily one general kind of person who…

I've met some genuinely decent cops, e.g. state troopers, who probably make decent money and care enough to take a pay cut versus what they would make as tech middle management. Driving around issuing speeding tickets and occasionally shooting homeless guys isn't intellectual work, but convincing people who were abused by the last guy in your job that you're trying to make their lives better is tough. Would you be up to it?
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