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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#71

Post by simple10 »

imroot wrote: post #40
6t6t6 wrote: post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Depending on where you live, that's exactly what happens. In Kentucky, they'll send (usually) 3 state troopers, and knock on your door. If the person that they want isn't at home, they'll take your word for it, and let you be on your way. In Ohio, it's usually six or more officers with guns drawn. They'll try to open the doors of the house to gain entry without knocking or announcing their presence. When the person t…

The war on drugs is a primary driver for militarization of police in the US. To be fair, SWAT teams who raid drug houses often face heavily armed, violent criminals. There's a need -- sometimes -- for aggressive tactics. But the SWAT officers are far better trained than the regular police force who should not be engaged in this level of high risk, forced entry.

I've known SWAT officers and non-violent drug dealers who were both fundamentally decent people.

The problem can often be traced back to how police departments make up budget gaps. A large chunk of a department's budget comes from federal funding. The more drug related arrests, the more "war on drugs" money a department gets. This inadvertently enters a slippery slope where militarization on both sides is incentivized.

If local communities actually covered the full budget of a police department, the system would probably tend towards a more just and appropriate level of force.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#72

Post by kansface »

hockley wrote: post #43
vaadu wrote: post #29

There will NEVER be accountability as long as the conflict of interest remains where police actions are investigated by a prosecutor that relies on these same police for him to do a successful job.

This fact was so evident last year. I don't understand why cop cases don't have special prosecutors or fall under federal jurisdiction.

Cops testify in federal courts, too. There is no incentive for prosecutors to indict cops.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#73

Post by SwellJoe »

I'm so past fed up with police in America. The drug war is pathological. The notion that a cop can kill an unarmed suspect with impunity (especially if they're black or homeless or mentally ill) is disgusting. The belief that "law and order" is a value worth allowing one group the exclusive privilege of breaking any law and causing any disorder they like without consequence simply has to end.

I'm at the point where I think the only sane thing is to dismantle the police, as we know it, and rebuild something less violent, less systemically racist, less prone to imprison or kill the mentally ill, and more aligned with basic human decency.

Talking about how dangerous flashbangs are misses the point of how dangerous the system that wields them is and how dangerous the people employed by that system are. Police have dozens of tools and techniques for destroying human life. As long as they are empowered (and even expected) to use them with impunity, there will be tragedy after tragedy, where children, the mentally ill, and innocent people, are injured or killed or imprisoned.

Not that talking about flashbangs is a bad idea. I just think we're past the point where fixing flashbangs will significantly fix things. This is a systemic problem which can only be resolved by systemic solutions.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#74

Post by EthanHeilman »

refurb wrote: post #45
jburwell wrote: post #2

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operation…

and are, essentially, burning thermite What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1]. The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

If I remember my chemistry correctly, thermite = aluminium + an oxidizer. So the filler you are describing is thermite.

Edit: I worry I may be incorrect. Thermite seems like a very odd thing to put in a flash bang. Perhaps it is only a thermite mixture but the reaction is different?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#75

Post by jrs235 »

click170 wrote: post #34
username223 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.

It doesn't help that departments don't want intelligent officers and can refuse to hire people based on high IQ scores.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95836&page=1#.Tv-OZSNWplw

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#76

Post by knodi123 »

username223 wrote: post #57
click170 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.

According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti.…

why should I take a paycut? if we end the war on drugs, we could pay fewer officers more money to do more effective and humane policing, with more training. win/win/win.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#77

Post by jMyles »

yellowapple wrote: post #49
jMyles wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?" Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website,…

I think the issue is that there are two conflicting populations on Hacker News: hackers/geeks/nerds in the traditional sense (who are here to talk about cool technology and such, and because the place is called "Hacker News") and entrepreneurs (who are here to talk about economics and politics and such, and because the place is run by a company that funds entrepreneurs). Being part of the first group, it's a bit stra…

The sentiment you've expressed here seems common on HackerNews, and I commend you for taking the time to lay it out with such clarity and detail.

I disagree with you in part. I don't think that the two groups you've painted are discrete, much less distinct. Of the descriptions you've given, I fit much more clearly in the former (I spend far more time digging around old Github repos and fantasizing about Arduino projects to try with my soon-to-be-born child).

However, the technical detail of this article is not lost on me. The authors have gone to painstaking lengths to template the picture of a flashbang incident and fill it in with instances (shown in aside#injuries). They have produced an informative graphic map showing a specific technical detail of the policy implementation in Little Rock (the exact locations and a demographic element).

The prose itself is replete with other technical details, such as the types of injuries suffered and how they were treated and the specific legislation being considered in light of these events.

These details may not describe anything electronic or even futuristic, but they are technical in the sense that they're measurable and require illumination via intense study in order to understand and present.

Just like an interpreter optimization or a new design pattern, the various calls to action need to be sufficiently compelling as to motivate a critical mass to call for change, and so supporters (and perhaps opponents) have gathered around them.

I'm increasingly convinced that "technical" and "political" are just words that we use to couch "familiar" and "controversial."

I do agree that more technical details of how flashbangs work (especially what, if any, tactical advantages they actually confer and how we know that) are desirable.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#78

Post by Retra »

girvo wrote: post #70
Retra wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's either a lie, or just poor record-keeping. I would find the poor record-keeping entirely believable, but besides the point: even if they _had_ been trained to use flashbangs, then they we not trained properly or the shouldn't have been used at all. Just because something is standard procedure doesn't make it the correct procedure.

I'd be more inclined to believe it was poor record keeping if there wasn't a decades long history of police lying to cover for each other. Fool me a thousand times...

I'd be worried about confirmation bias on that front. You don't remember all the times they told the truth but just did a poor job. It sounds like a lie either way.

But in my experience in the military, record-keeping is boring and routine, so there is a tendency to just pump out sub-standard paperwork and say "nobody is really going to look at it anyway, and if they do, they already know it's not reliable."

Training records? Pah. I'm surprised they even have training records. It's probably just a speedily-drafted form with a signature line on it. That's how you train 45 people at once: you make one form, have them all sign it, then you do the training. The form isn't accurate? Who cares, you got the signature and 'did your job'.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#79

Post by woodman »

username223 wrote: post #57
click170 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a chicken and egg problem. They barely deserve the salary they get now with all the incidents going on, but they won't get more intelligent people applying until the wages are increased. Probably best to start with the teachers so theres a larger pool if educated people to hire from.

According to BLS, coders make something like $93k/yr [1], while policemen make about $57k [2], and primary school teachers make $53k [3]. How much of a pay cut would you take to accept one of those jobs? How much more in taxes would you pay to hire/train better people to do those jobs? [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/S... [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/Protective-Service/Police-and-detecti.…

I'm not able to find the BLS methodology used to come up with that $57k figure, does anybody know? Unless they're drawing that from the IRS, I really doubt the accuracy. Cops generally make quite a bit of money from overtime and generous pensions. They also frequently moonlight and get paid well to do very little: any business that employs a large number of temp workers will have an off duty cop hanging out in a back office, for liability reasons. This demand for off duty cops is a result of cities taking on liability for the off duty cop's actions - instead of the business. At one place I worked, security alerted the off duty that somebody was on the roof late one night (presumably to steal copper from the AC units). The cop made a phone call and within minutes a police helicopter was launch and circling the building, that is another reason why off duty cops get paid so well - the employing business gets a little taste of state power at the tax payer's expense.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#80

Post by knodi123 »

imroot wrote: post #40
6t6t6 wrote: post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Depending on where you live, that's exactly what happens. In Kentucky, they'll send (usually) 3 state troopers, and knock on your door. If the person that they want isn't at home, they'll take your word for it, and let you be on your way. In Ohio, it's usually six or more officers with guns drawn. They'll try to open the doors of the house to gain entry without knocking or announcing their presence. When the person t…

Not criticizing you for ending your friendship; but, as a side note, this contributes to another effect- basically the only people that thuggish oppressive cops can actually relax around, and be casual friends with, are other cops. Which only contributes further to "us vs them".

If a sci-fi novel portrayed a society where the police were a separate race of creatures who lived in walled compounds and survived by robbing and intimidating the citizens around them, I'd agree that it was far-fetched... But it seems like our society is taking constant, purposeful steps towards such a world. The war on drugs, asset forfeiture laws, militarization of cops.... violent raids on a little old woman selling illegal beer, followed by attempts to have her home destroyed...

Yikes.

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