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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#11

Post by xeromal »

username223 wrote: post #7
jburwell wrote: post #2

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operation…

For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.

I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#12

Post by hga »

jburwell wrote: post #2

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operation…

"In these types of military operations, the operators run a extreme risk of severe injury or death and the death of the targets is both acceptable and highly likely."

I'd submit to you that both of these are arguably true, once the all too routine decision to take "direct action" has been made:

America is a legally well armed society, and these home invasions are indistinguishable from ones done by Official Criminals, especially since the latter are known to pretend to be police.

That "the death of the targets is" entirely "acceptable" should be evident to any unbiased observer of these direct actions. Especially since the Badge Gang, as some are taking to call them, are almost never held to account; if ever there was a case to do that, the one of Bou Bou's maiming should have been.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#13

Post by jMyles »

darklajid wrote: post #9

I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate o…

I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?"

Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website, the drug war, as a exercise of prohibition policy, is largely on-topic here per se because it represents a pain-point (and according to a majority of people, at least in the USA, a failure) which many entrepreneurs and statesmen are actively seeking to fix via innovation.

This article seems utterly on-topic to me.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#14

Post by lifeisstillgood »

Is there anyway to push for or endorse research into police weapons use in USA? I seem to remember a discussion some time back pointing out there was no central registry or even need to report gun use for all police forces.

It just seems that blowing the face off a sleeping baby ought to be the point you start filling in forms and asking questions like "is the person throwing a grenade well trained? Has the information they are acting upon come from as reliable source? Is there post action public reviews?

It seems that some parts of the USA lead the world and some parts still have hay stalks in their mouths.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#15

Post by 6t6t6 »

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest".

I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#16

Post by beloch »

There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and triggered only if in a desirable location.

Personally, I think building a flashbang that's harder to injure people with will simply result in increasingly idiotic behavior on the part of the police. The real solution is to use flashbangs less and with better training. That means regulations and oversight because the police apparently suck at policing themselves. However, the U.S. loves to solve problems with tech even when it's not the best solution, so there's money to be made here.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#17

Post by username223 »

xeromal wrote: post #11
username223 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.

I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.

When your job ads say "not much pay, but you get to carry a big gun and scare people with it," this is what you get. I wish cops and primary/secondary teachers were paid enough that the people reading this post would consider those jobs, because they kind of matter.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#18

Post by mbrubeck »

darklajid wrote: post #9

I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate o…

The US has a tendency to export its bad ideas along with its good ones, so readers elsewhere might still have reason to be concerned about what happens there. These weapons are already used by some police in other places, like in Canada where a protesting student was seriously injured [1]. French police used flash bangs in the recent hostage situation in a grocery store [2].

[1]: http://rabble.ca/news/2012/03/police-violence-rise-montreal

[2]: http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jan/09/charlie-he...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#19

Post by Zigurd »

beloch wrote: post #16

There seems to be some room for innovation here. The police are throwing these things blind. Evidence? Well, I refuse to believe anyone, no matter how debased, would intentionally throw a flashbang into a baby's crib. What's needed is a flashbang that either won't go off if in close proximity to a living being (e.g. perhaps add an IR sensor) or a flashbang that is triggered remotely, so it can be thrown, spotted, and…

It shouldn't be necessary to do paramilitary raids of homes unless there is some desperate situation like hostages being killed.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#20

Post by iamdave »

6t6t6 wrote: post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

The problem with that is that it makes entirely too much goddamn sense.

Also something about cops being in such constant terror and fear for their lives that criminals are constantly carrying around AR-15 gas powered rifles, that it's easier to catch them by surprise at home than to risk doing your job more humanely and end up with a 5.56 round in the chest.

Or something like that.

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