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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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41–50 of 262 posts

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#41
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing their lawyers have told them not to apologize (show apathy), as it may actually be worse for them in the civil suit.

Cops in the US are immune to civil liability for acts while on duty.

There are two flaws in this statement:

1) Police, and most public officials, are subject to qualified, not absolute, immunity.

2) Given that municipal or state governments have to pick up the check when juries find against police departments, the comment you are responding to is still sensible (I'm not saying I agree with it, only that it's not illogical in the matter that you seem to be suggesting).

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#42
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's most amazing is how smug and unapologetic the involved LEOs are when they've been interviewed on camera about this incident. One can only hope that the video is accepted as evidence in the civil case and will add a significant multiplier to the damages awarded.

I'm guessing their lawyers have told them not to apologize (show apathy), as it may actually be worse for them in the civil suit.

This comment doesn't need to be downvoted. It's not stating anything as fact - quite the opposite - it's very clear it's just a guess. And it makes logical sense according to this [1]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#43
post #29

There will NEVER be accountability as long as the conflict of interest remains where police actions are investigated by a prosecutor that relies on these same police for him to do a successful job.

This fact was so evident last year. I don't understand why cop cases don't have special prosecutors or fall under federal jurisdiction.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#44
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a more hilarious use of military tech by police, see this video by Doraville, GA police of their "track-y fun-box" (a.k.a. "tank," sorry for the ear-splitting levels): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kajhu7qgojU You have to wonder what threats they face among their population of 8,000 citizens in north-central Georgia.

I grew up in Ellijay, GA and many police offers were bullies in my highschool. The city doesn't really have the cream of the crop or the pay to choose otherwise.

"Jobs for those of job age," as Anthony Burgess put it.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#45
post #2

The use of flash bangs by law enforcement is horrifying. These tools were design for to support direct action missions by special operations forces, and are, essentially, burning thermite [1] (e.g. able to melt through an engine block). To be clear, a direct operation mission is the use of lethal force to kill or capture one or more individuals or perform high risk hostage rescue. In these types of military operation…

and are, essentially, burning thermite

What makes you think flashbangs contain thermite? From what I can tell they contain a small amount of explosives[1].

The filler consists of a pyrotechnic metal-oxidant mix of magnesium or aluminium, and an oxidizer such as ammonium perchlorate or potassium perchlorate.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#46
post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

One, lots of people like kicking doors in. Two, there are no consequences for getting it wrong in most cases. Three, there's a slim possibility that if they stop someone in the street and they've underestimated the situation, someone in the house would open fire on them, so it's become increasingly standard to carry out every raid like they're in a John Carpenter movie.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#47
post #26
post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

> wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". But then they wouldn't get to use all the paramilitary gear and act like they are some special Commando unit or something. They would be boringly waiting outside for hours and they just say "Hands behind your back, you are under arrest". That is absilutely no…

paramilitary gear

There's nothing "para" about it. That gear is coming straight from the military.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/upshot/data-on-transfer-of...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#48
post #15

I don't live in the US, so I am maybe missing something but, if the police wants to arrest someone, wouldn't be easier to wait until this person leaves the house, grab him on the street and tell him: "Hi mate, we are the police and now you are under arrest". I don't see the need of assaulting a home.

Of course it's not necessary to assault a home. But tactics like this intimidate the population into stunned compliance. The word for this is "terrorism", from the French reign of terror where enemies of the revolutionary state were summarily executed in public. Of course, terrorist states managed to redefine the term by the mid-20th century.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#49
post #13

I'm not sure if this belongs on this site. This is .. utterly political. Reading that article leads me astray and I have to question the sanity of the persons involved, both on the acting side (police) and the justification side (spokesman, random "Yeah, criminals are dangerous and all" crap). This is the prime example of a cultural clash, of an article that is relevant for the US of A only (I hope there's a debate o…

I don't mean to question your basis for your assessment because your comment is otherwise wonderful and agreeable, but why it is that every time an article is written that impugns a government's use of a particular technology, it is regarded as "utterly political?" Even if this article weren't about flashbangs, whose particulars are examined in the article from a perspective consistent with the norms of this website,…

I think the issue is that there are two conflicting populations on Hacker News: hackers/geeks/nerds in the traditional sense (who are here to talk about cool technology and such, and because the place is called "Hacker News") and entrepreneurs (who are here to talk about economics and politics and such, and because the place is run by a company that funds entrepreneurs).

Being part of the first group, it's a bit strange to me to see this sort of article on a site that's called "Hacker News", and I agree with the parent commenter that the article feels out-of-place here. Perhaps if it had some nifty technical details on flash bangs and their effects on humans (more concrete references to PTSD diagnoses, descriptions of temperatures attained by flashbangs and the physical effects of those temperatures on humans, even some possible elaboration on potential blindness caused by flashbangs) - in other words, things that hook into scientific basis (which makes nerds squee) rather than emotion/"ethics" (which doesn't make nerds squee) - would improve this.

On the other hand, I realize that my demographic is not the only one worth considering (regardless of whether I want it to be the only one worth considering). It's disappointing that articles with a dearth of technical description seem to be becoming the norm even here, but at the same time I realize that it's not disappointing to all of HN's users, so the best I can do is move on to a hopefully-better article (or stop using the site and find a place that actually lives up to my own expectations of something called "Hacker News").

Take, for example, this article regarding the hypothetical effects of extreme magnetism on humans[0], which was posted on HN yesterday and was well-received, relatively speaking. Unlike this article, it focuses on scientifically-tangible effects, and even revolves around a Futurama reference to boot; in other words, it actually appeals to the hacker/geek/nerd demographic described above. Had this article been written more similarly to this one (though probably without the humor involved, given the more serious tone and subject), it probably wouldn't be subject to derision as being "utterly political", and would instead be more universally appreciated by both demographics of this site (since it appeals to the interests of both those demographics).

The article's perspective may be "consistent with the norms of this website", as you say; my point (and presumably that of the parent commenter) is that it's only consistent with - at best - half of the norms and expectations. It covers an interesting subject (for the entrepreneurs, at least); it just needs to do so with more technical detail.

That all said, us nerds do post plenty of purely-technical articles with seemingly-boring subjects (made exciting by the technicality itself, to us at least), so I suppose it's only fair that a purely-non-technical article slips through every once in awhile.

[0]: https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/how-strong...

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#50
post #24

> “If she hadn’t been selling illegal items out of the home, no warrant would have been served,” he said. “What you call extreme, we call safe.” Disgusting. The militarisation of police is a blight on our societies progress. And now where I live is succumbing to it too, albeit far more slowly than what those in the US have to deal with. The fact that SWAT teams are using flash bangs and automatic weaponry to raid a w…

And yet, American citizenry at large and the justice system in general gives the police the benefit of the doubt in all matters versus the populace. Are we really that dumb as a country? If you have to ask...
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