“Nothing you can do impresses me” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#61

Post by jnbiche » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:38 PM UTC

robbyking wrote: post #46

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

In my experience in my areas of interest (be it music, cycling, or software development) that it’s the knowledgable, confident members of these communities who are encouraging and happy to share what they know, and it’s the inexperienced, insecure ones who are standoffish and quick to dismiss others’ abilities.

You're absolutely correct. The problem with software development is for some reason, there's an environment that makes a hell of a lot of people insecure, and then it feeds on itself (more insecure people criticizing, creating more insecurity).

Why are people so insecure in software? I have no idea. Outsourcing? Social backgrounds?

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#62

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:38 PM UTC

doktrin wrote: post #28

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #19

What’s the first thing that you as a senior developer would say to that person before seeing or testing their project? Let me guess — you’re thinking, “Is it responsive?” Does it reflect poorly on me if this sounds like a rather convoluted hypothetical? Then again, I'm not involved in web development, for what it's worth. Maybe there are people who actually think like this.

It sounded silly to me as well. I do work with web technologies, albeit in research and not industry. Maybe it's a web startup thing.

[deleted]

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#63

Post by the_cat_kittles » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:38 PM UTC

it seems like the so called creative coding community is less about poking holes and more about cool stuff they made

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#64

Post by jnbiche » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:40 PM UTC

Practicality wrote: post #36

Being in the senior position I have had both attitudes (critical AND supportive), and I can tell you it has to do with how the ideas are presented to me. Sometimes the new developer will come in and talk about how his new thing is better than everything else, and everything written before him was garbage. You can bet he will get a lot of criticism. This is not some ego thing (although I am sure that does have an effe…

This is a totally fair attitude. To be honest, there have been a few times when I've been going on and on about something I've accomplished (not even necessarily in software) and I've been cut down by a more experienced person. After I finish fuming, I usually stop and think, and that's been a good thing.

The problem I've run into in software is that I've also been slammed when I've very humbly and timidly introduced a project or some code, in an area I'm new in. It's a problem, more so than in other professions/hobbies I've spent time in.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#65

Post by sillysaurus3 » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:41 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #51

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're pr…

The internet phenomenon of simultaneously granting voice with anonymity has definitely given rise to much more critical, negative discussion, which is ultimately fruitless and detracts from community value. Like you said, it takes work to be supportive, and if your voice isn't tied to your reputation, many will forgo even attempting it. That's not to say the workplace is the same though. Some people have figured out…

True enough, but it may be one reason there are comparatively few women in tech. People choose a career for themselves when they're years of work away from being in any workplace. Hacker News is the closest thing that people will get to knowing what it's like to work in tech.

Which is unfortunate, since HN is nothing like working in tech. Remember the brogrammer phenomenon? At the time, it almost seemed like that was the direction the industry might be headed. Luckily not.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#66

Post by peterwwillis » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

The kernel of the argument in this post is hiring. The discussion about "coder culture"† is germane because it drives the gatekeeping function of in-group coders in hiring. I don't have a problem with people discussing what is or isn't productive about how a stereotypical programmer behaves in groups. But the real issue here is that the stereotypical programmer is given entirely too much authority in the hiring proce…

There's hiring, and then there's culture. Regardless of influence into the hiring process, the culture will perpetuate no matter who was hired or why. The industry's hiring processes in general do need improvement. But the industry also needs to refocus on a mature, professional, compassionate culture. Thing is, how the hell do you impose that on a post-collegiate boys club full of nerdy egomaniacs? (I'm massively generalizing here, but so does this article/thread)

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#67

Post by ims » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #23

The kernel of the argument in this post is hiring. The discussion about "coder culture"† is germane because it drives the gatekeeping function of in-group coders in hiring. I don't have a problem with people discussing what is or isn't productive about how a stereotypical programmer behaves in groups. But the real issue here is that the stereotypical programmer is given entirely too much authority in the hiring proce…

> † A concept I reject, but understand.

I would like to hear more about that.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#68

Post by peterwwillis » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #54

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

This goes both ways. I've tried to be a helpful force in a few coder's lives, but something prevents them from taking the advice to heart, and instead of getting better, they just stop coming to me. I then only run into their code during code reviews, and when I point out the issues, they take it as me saying, "you're no good", and never fix the issues, preferring to slink away into the night. What's a guy supposed t…

This might seem like a strange comparison, but this reminds me of how positive reinforcement is related to training animals and small children. When you use positive reinforcement as a learning tool, the individual is more predisposed to behave properly and will want to follow your cues more. It could be the reason they're no longer coming to you is you're not giving them enough encouragement and positive feedback. You can also try to engage more, like go to them and offer to help explain what is is you'd like them to do, or answer questions. (It could also be the opposite and you may need to back off from engaging... people are complex)

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#69

Post by cbr » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #48

stevewepay wrote: post #15

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did…

It seems like being supportive is something everyone agrees is a great thing, but few people actually do. Being supportive is just so much work, after all. Much easier to think of ten ways to tear something down. For evidence of how supportive tech communities are, take a look at what happens when someone tries to show off their early projects: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8747053 Comments include "They're pr…

    Comments include "They're probably lying," "This is
    like a parent posting their kindergartener's first
    crayon house-and-trees-and-sun drawings out into
    blogs," etc. And most of those comments were heavily
    endorsed by this community

Hmm; I remember that thread as much more positive. Let's look back over top level comments and look at ratios?

     [1] supportive: I did this kind of thing too!
     [2] dismissive: this sound suspicious
     [3] supportive: nostalgic
     [4] supportive: modern stuff shouldn't be harder to use
     [5] supportive: I did something similar
     [6] supportive: astonishing story
     [7] dismissive: nitpicking remembered memory sizes
     [8] supportive: fascinating story
     [9] supportive: we should be talking about the op, not ourselves
    [10] supportive: I did similar stuff too
    [11] dismissive: win2x > win98
    [12] supportive: similar experience; would love to talk
    [13] dismissive: not an os, it's a shell
    ...

Seems largely positive? And I'm not seeing either of the two quotes you reference.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#70

Post by Krowbar » Fri, Jan 09, 2015, 6:54 PM UTC

This is one reason I've had fun on the tilde club I joined a while back. There's a culture of curiosity (and curiosities) with a non-critical culture and a mutually agreed upon "NO DRAMA" rule. I've worked on some silly scripts and web pages just for the sheer joy of it and I've been able to share my work with others without fear of the usual hyper-critical community (which I also love in its own way).