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“Nothing you can do impresses me”

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Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#11

Post by kylestlb »

Bahamut wrote: post #4

I have learned a similar lesson over the past few months - I was thrust into a leadership position by part circumstance, and when it came to working with junior developers, it clicked that I needed to be building them up & increase their confidence in the correct approaches to engineering, not be hyper critical. I am indeed hypercritical of my own work, always striving for self-improvement, but I recognize that diffe…

In addition, those junior devs could also be hypercritical of their own work. However, they may not have the same experience or context of a senior developer and could simply be unaware of the scope of improvement. That's where mentoring and teaching should come in!

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#12

Post by debacle »

pcmonk wrote: post #9
fein wrote: post #3

I'm used to this? I'll be leaving my job here in a few weeks for what I consider my dream gig. I expect to be criticized on nearly every project, because that makes me a better coder. I'm not sure if it's just adapting to the environment or if I actually like the general cynicism. A pat on the back is nice, but I strongly believe in the "this is always shit" mantra of software dev. There is always something that can…

When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done. Obviously constructive criticism needs to happen -- the author isn't disputing that. In fact, she says "it's been tough to get useful feedback" because people care more about cutting the other person down than actually evaluating the work. It's very easy to couch constructive criticism…

> When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done.

What you're really saying is that you have the rewards system of a child. The application the author wrote is very simple and has no use - what kind of feedback is she looking for?

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#13

Post by mcguire »

fein wrote: post #3

I'm used to this? I'll be leaving my job here in a few weeks for what I consider my dream gig. I expect to be criticized on nearly every project, because that makes me a better coder. I'm not sure if it's just adapting to the environment or if I actually like the general cynicism. A pat on the back is nice, but I strongly believe in the "this is always shit" mantra of software dev. There is always something that can…

"I expect to be criticized on nearly every project, because that makes me a better coder."

A great deal of the criticism is not intended to make you a better coder, and it probably won't do so. It's intended to make the critic appear superior or at lest feel superior.

Yeah, I've done that. It's a bad habit to get into, and a hard one to get out of.

"There is always something that can be improved, and beating around the bush with flowery language doesn't really help to fix it."

"Great. Now tell me something I don't know."

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#14

Post by mcguire »

debacle wrote: post #12
pcmonk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done. Obviously constructive criticism needs to happen -- the author isn't disputing that. In fact, she says "it's been tough to get useful feedback" because people care more about cutting the other person down than actually evaluating the work. It's very easy to couch constructive criticism…

> When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done. What you're really saying is that you have the rewards system of a child. The application the author wrote is very simple and has no use - what kind of feedback is she looking for?

I believe what pcmonk is trying to say is that you are stupid and arrogant, and that is a poor combination.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#15

Post by stevewepay »

When I first came to Silicon Valley, I had a couple of senior engineers as my mentors. The most important lesson I learned from them is that they were extremely supportive. I had a couple of ideas for new features, and instead of shooting them down and telling me why it wouldn't work, their responses were always "Hmmm, sounds interesting. Why don't you spend some time on it and let's see how it works out." When I did something dumb, they would point out the mistakes after implementation, but never in a "I'm smarter than you" way.

Of course, since then I've had many jobs where the other engineers were always hypercritical as this article points out. In this industry there certainly is an undercurrent of everyone trying to prove how smart they are by showing why everyone else is dumber than them.

However, I'll never forget my first mentors and I try to respond exactly as they did, which is be supportive to any of the junior engineers that I mentor. I always try to not say "no", even if I feel they are wrong, and I always engage in a conversation. Even if I disagree with what they want to do, I'll try give them the opportunity to prove me wrong (within reason) as opposed to simply shutting them down with a curt "you're wrong, no."

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#16

Post by pcmonk »

debacle wrote: post #12
pcmonk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done. Obviously constructive criticism needs to happen -- the author isn't disputing that. In fact, she says "it's been tough to get useful feedback" because people care more about cutting the other person down than actually evaluating the work. It's very easy to couch constructive criticism…

> When I feel like I'm doing good work, I'm a lot more productive, and I care more about doing things right vs just getting them done. What you're really saying is that you have the rewards system of a child. The application the author wrote is very simple and has no use - what kind of feedback is she looking for?

I suspect even "I can think of no use case for this app" would be more appreciated than "is it fully buzzword-compliant?"

Additionally, phrases like "What you're really saying is that you have the rewards system of a child" are exactly what I'm talking about. That statement is intentionally worded as an attack, so I have to make a conscious effort to not get defensive. If you want an actual discussion about how rewards systems may change as people grow up, we can talk about that. That was an extremely ineffective way of starting the conversation, though.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#17

Post by serve_yay »

> Let me give an example — say a new coder had somehow, impossibly, in their first month of coding, created an app that would save the planet, plunging us into a permanent state of world peace and 100% clean energy. What’s the first thing that you as a senior developer would say to that person before seeing or testing their project? Let me guess — you’re thinking, “Is it responsive?”

Not like I think there is no truth to TFA, but it's pretty much "You think newbs are dumb, but it is actually you who are dumb." Well, OK, I already spend a lot of time considering that. And, for what it's worth I think the senior ones are mostly not so hot either.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#18

Post by Swizec »

AngrySkillzz wrote: post #5
fein wrote: post #3

I'm used to this? I'll be leaving my job here in a few weeks for what I consider my dream gig. I expect to be criticized on nearly every project, because that makes me a better coder. I'm not sure if it's just adapting to the environment or if I actually like the general cynicism. A pat on the back is nice, but I strongly believe in the "this is always shit" mantra of software dev. There is always something that can…

Humans in general have a serious problem saying "I don't know." Someone who is able to admit that they don't know something deserves your respect, at the very least.

The exact phrase you're looking for is "I don't know, but ..."

Saying "I don't know" is often a defense mechanism. It saves you from having to know. If you don't know, and you wash your hands of it, whatever happens isn't really your fault is it? And you're not going to know either.

But if you say "I don't know, but" and try to figure it out, or find out more, etc. ... that does take guts. That is actually admitting you're fallible AND it gives you a chance to improve and get to know.

Those are the people you want to hire.

You need people who recognise their ignorance and do somethign about it. Not people who use their ignorance as an excuse.

Re: “Nothing you can do impresses me”

#19

Post by vezzy-fnord »

What’s the first thing that you as a senior developer would say to that person before seeing or testing their project? Let me guess — you’re thinking, “Is it responsive?”

Does it reflect poorly on me if this sounds like a rather convoluted hypothetical? Then again, I'm not involved in web development, for what it's worth. Maybe there are people who actually think like this.

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