Live data from Hacker News

The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

iamjwal.com

221–230 of 273 posts

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#221
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The overall environment matters more than the teacher. You seem to be suggesting that the quality of the teacher can play only a minor role in the educational outcome for disadvantaged students. Yet there is considerable evidence to support the opposite view. Here is a summary of a few studies as reported in Teaching as Leadership [1]: "The schools that are highly effective produce results that almost entirely over…

I work at a public high school. Marzano is currently overseeing the building I work in as our educational "partner". He hasn't set foot in a classroom since the 70s and is utterly clueless. The article makes some good points and mirrors the experience of many ambitious teachers I've seen ground out of "the system".

I'm not sure why a person would need to set foot in a classroom in order to measure what works in education. Sure, a teacher will have anecdotal evidence about what works and what hasn't for his students. Some of this may even be quite powerful. But it will also necessarily be tied to the socioeconomic patterns that exist among his students, external school circumstances, his personality, etc.

That's why there are people who study the behavior of teachers in the aggregate (and, yes, this involves measuring outcomes through testing), and the associated educational outcomes, so that policymakers at various levels can guide the educational system as a whole in a way that will be the most helpful for the most students. This is, broadly speaking, just one example of how social science research and policymaking is done.

Of course, none of this means that Marzano is not clueless. He might be clueless for entirely separate reasons.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#222
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do this in Chicago. We call them "magnet" schools, as they are intended to attract the best and the brightest. On the one hand, these are the most diverse schools in this heavily segregated city. They give students from rough neighborhoods a better chance to live a different life. On the other hand, they decrease the quality of neighborhood schools (non-magnet) by skimming the cream from the top, if you will. Now,…

I went to a "magnet" elementary school. Pretty sure there was no criteria, it was just the public elementary school of the area. There was a mix of students from the suburban areas and the more ghetto area about 30 minutes away. One kid in 2nd grade or so was found selling crack in the bathroom. It seemed to have a lot of expensive stuff and had some computer class where we just did things in certain games like makin…

That's funny.

I taught at a magnet school on the west side that operated the same way.

Many magnet schools do not operate as they were designed. Each magnet school was supposed to offer an original line of programming in which the school specialized.

Perhaps it was like that at one time, but those days are gone. The school I taught at was supposed to teach aviation. I guess there was one guy who taught that program once, and then he retired. He was not replaced.

Magnet schools give preferential enrollment of up to 40% to neighborhood students and siblings, but they can recruit selectively, unlike a neighborhood school that must accept any student that lives in the attendance boundary.

The situation that I was describing in my original post was more pertaining to high schools than elementary schools.

There are over 100 high schools in Chicago, but most students want to get into the same 5. If you live in a decent neighborhood, your neighborhood school may be alright, but if you live in the South or West sides, the selective enrollment high schools are pretty much your best chance to get out. Therefore, if you fuck up in the sixth or seventh grade on either homework or standardized tests, the consequences can be severe.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#223
post #127

I taught middle school science in Houston for five years. I decided to leave the traditional public school system for many of the same reasons the author makes about his experience. This was over a decade ago so it's sad to hear the same problems persist. Alternatives like charter schools have not always fared well, but some, like YES College Prep ( http://www.yesprep.org/ ), are serving low income areas and achievin…

Actually, we do have a shortage of Doctors, especially Primary Care. Caps are set in place by Medicare to limit the number of residents in an academic program. Academic hospitals would love to increase their slots but Medicare won't allow that. I think last year something like 23k students applied to residency programs and only 6k got accepted. What happens to the rejected 17k students as they wander aimlessly to fig…

This is disingenuous. Medical schools would increase resident caps even without the bonus money from Medicare if there was a reason to do so. Reasons go beyond just the Medicare funds that go for those slots.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#224
I taught high school for 5 years and made the same decision. The biggest factor for me was how the schools were being administered; just a few examples:

- Competition among students, instead of being used as a motivator as piles of research suggests, was specifically DISALLOWED because it might make certain students feel bad.

- When a student fell behind because they were slacking off in class, it was the teacher's responsibility to put in extra time and make sure they caught up, stopping just short of doing the work FOR the student.

- Double standards, administrators demanding that classes be "rigorous", but then when students complain that the class is too hard, or students get bad grades because they can't hack it, that of course is the teacher's fault, and it is reflected in our official evaluations.

- Turf wars among teachers who only care about protecting their own jobs.

- I never had a full time job. Schools will hire for, say .6 FTE, or even .2 FTE, which no one can make a living on. I tried holding 3 teaching jobs at once to put together a full time salary and that worked for about 4 months before things fell apart.

- Working hours of 60-70 hours per week during the school year leads to burnout.

- I make 3x as much as a software engineer.

If it was truly about the students, I'd still be teaching, But it's not.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#225
post #149
post #12

Great points. This, I think is one of the fundamental problems: --- If parents and local decision-makers really value education (and there is a small portion of the community that does), student and teacher morale would be much different. --- The overall environment matters more than the teacher. We've mentioned it here not too long ago as well. Doesn't matter how fancy the workbooks and new materials or how hard we…

> The overall environment matters more than the teacher. You seem to be suggesting that the quality of the teacher can play only a minor role in the educational outcome for disadvantaged students. Yet there is considerable evidence to support the opposite view. Here is a summary of a few studies as reported in Teaching as Leadership [1]: "The schools that are highly effective produce results that almost entirely over…

[deleted]

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#226
post #84

Honest question: We lived with one car (a car that was given to us) for 4 ½ years. During that time, I walked or rode my bike to school to save on gas. We recently bought a second car with money I saved from my web design business. Is the US really structured so that owning one car is (seen as) a problem?

Yes, the U.S. is a giant country geographically and many areas have poor public transportation as a result of how spread out it is. Virginia is a fairly rural state.

The kicker is that many populated areas are spread out because the local public infrastructure cannot support higher density. It's a vicious cycle. Can't provide better infrastructure because of insufficient density; can't increase density because of insufficient infrastructure.

Most people don't need to live in Wyoming. So they don't. People want to live in cities, for the additional synergistic opportunities. They are driven away by the municipal corruption that spends their higher in-city taxes on sinecures and pensions rather than on actual services and infrastructure.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#227
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is (in a socialist market). Finnish teachers have some of the utmost prestige.

The problem with those who make 1:1 comparisons of the US and Finnish public education systems is that Finland is largely (yes, I know there are some Swedes there) a homogeneous culture, whereas the US is a "melting pot" containing a huge variety of cultures.

The problem with those who make 1:1 comparisons of the US public education and Chinese private education systems is that those who can afford private education in China are largely (yes, I know there are some Americans and Koreans there) an (ostensibly) homogeneous culture, whereas the US is a "melting pot" containing a huge variety of cultures.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DC is at least as good as San Francisco for living without a car. You're having problems because you're out in the suburbs. Move into DC proper or even to a more accessible suburb like Ballston, Clarendon, Crystal City, etc or even just move a bit closer to old town Alexandria and it's very easy to live without a car.

DC is fine. But "DC" is a tiny part of the "DC area". I grew up in Annandale. A car was necessary. An old friend of mine lives in Alexandria, in Del Ray. He takes the train into DC (which takes him about an hour total, when you add up the walking, waiting and riding). But his family needs a car because his wife works in a school that is not in walking distance, their parents live in Arlington and northwest DC, and mo…

> But "DC" is a tiny part of the "DC area".

Every city has outlying suburbs and not a single one has excellent transit throughout the entire metropolitan area. The DC metropolitan area has the lowest mode share for private automobiles and the highest mode share for public transportation of any except for NYC. It is objectively the second best city in the US for getting around without a car. It is clearly not as good as NYC but it is certainly not worse than San Francisco.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#229

The American political system is broken. Here is a middle-class family that can barely make it. The GOP harp on about lower taxes and immigration, and the Dems talk about economic equality and healthcare. The ACA helps the middle-class but the political gridlock ensures that the president, or anyone else, can't force through effective change. Commonly cited are campaign finance and lobbying and polarisation but those…

> merely the symptoms of the deeper problem which is the US constitution. I think the history of the US clearly shows that The Constitution isn't the source of our problems. We're not following it! Our elected leaders have stretched its definitions past the breaking point, and our judiciary has allowed those stretches to become law. You allude to states having a veto because of the Senate, but that's precisely what w…

If those who currently wield the power use it to repair the proper function of the political system, we might use it to take the power away from them. I think that there are now enough beneficiaries of the status quo who are unwilling to allow their power to peacefully escheat back to the people, that no reasonable reform proposal will ever be seriously considered.

So stop trying to be reasonable and start being stubborn and obstreporous.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to attract someone competent to a profession, generally it has to be seen as a desirable profession. As long as teaching is seen as a last resort people wont respect it and you'll keep attracting large numbers of teachers whose only qualification was that they couldn't find a better job somewhere else. To put it bluntly, teaching has been made into an objectively shitty profession, which is why you can't…

> If you want to attract someone competent to a profession, generally it has to be seen as a desirable profession. This is flawed logic. You're selecting for status-seeking personalities, not competence. > As long as teaching is seen as a last resort people wont respect it and you'll keep attracting large numbers of teachers whose only qualification was that they couldn't find a better job somewhere else. This is fla…

>This is flawed logic. You're selecting for status-seeking personalities, not competence

Huh? So anyone who wants autonomy and to be well paid is a status seeker? Sounds more to me like they're a typical human being.

> You don't even seem to consider the possibility that you've already managed to recruit as many competent teachers as can exist, and that you have so many incompetent ones because your demand outstrips supply.

I think that idea is so implausible that it's not worth considering. You seriously think you couldn't lure some bright creative minds who would have done an excellent job teaching by making the profession better compensated? Not just those currently on the market but the 18 year olds who are choosing their fields of study? You don't think there have been plenty of people who have kind of wanted to be teachers, then turned on the news and decided "I don't want to put up with that" and then go choose something else?

> They're being rewarded commensurate with their results.

Wow. Way to grossly oversimplify one of the most important public policy issues of our time. You can't ignore externalities that affect student performance and place all the blame on teachers. There are way way too many factors to try to pin blame on any one segment.

>Your tests and qualifications can't weed them out because they will attempt to game any tests you present.

No more than any other profession considered prestigious is "gamed" today. You do realize teachers need to go through a degree program, background checks and professional testing per subject they teach, don't you? And that's today let alone if we further incentivize the profession.

> This is not just an ineffective strategy for a large nation-state, it's an economically and educationally disastrous one. Hiring bright people to do a job that's vitally important to our society at a fair market price? The government spends enough money on nonsense that paying teachers well would be a drop in the bucket.

Post reply on HN