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The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

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Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#151

Post by Donzo »

w1ntermute wrote: post #18
rdtsc wrote: post #12

Great points. This, I think is one of the fundamental problems: --- If parents and local decision-makers really value education (and there is a small portion of the community that does), student and teacher morale would be much different. --- The overall environment matters more than the teacher. We've mentioned it here not too long ago as well. Doesn't matter how fancy the workbooks and new materials or how hard we…

If the problem is community, why not take the students/families who really do care (from all the schools in a metropolitan area) and put them all in the same school? That would at least be a start.

We do this in Chicago.

We call them "magnet" schools, as they are intended to attract the best and the brightest.

On the one hand, these are the most diverse schools in this heavily segregated city. They give students from rough neighborhoods a better chance to live a different life.

On the other hand, they decrease the quality of neighborhood schools (non-magnet) by skimming the cream from the top, if you will.

Now, the real problem with this system is how it deals with the intelligent but apathetic student. This student will not meet the criteria to enter one of these magnet schools, regardless of his or her test performance, and will be left in a virtual dumping ground, surrounded by few academically inclined individuals to motivate or otherwise inspire him or her. His or her teachers are likely to be burned out by the disparity of their environment. He or she may not have the right combination of toughness and grace to survive four years in this environment and is likely to become one of the roughly 50% of CPS students who drop out.

Now, does this seem like an appropriate path for a bright student who was unmotivated to complete their homework in the sixth or seventh grade, perhaps due to crippling emotional stress (jailed, drug addicted, or murdered parent)?

I don't have a better system, but I think that we can do better.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#152

Post by MichaelRender »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #64

The Reason Education Sucks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILQepXUhJ98 Edit: for those wanting something less cynical and more serious, I recommend some John Taylor Gatto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_CeWip5BpU#t=1m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCuc-2tfgk

When I read this article, the first thing I thought of was John Taylor Gattto, a man voted Teacher of the Year who had to resign out of conscience. I was lucky enough to spend a weekend with Mr. Gatto at a conference. Very enlightening.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#153

Post by pbhjpbhj »

thinkling wrote: post #38
w1ntermute wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the problem is community, why not take the students/families who really do care (from all the schools in a metropolitan area) and put them all in the same school? That would at least be a start.

Because that penalizes the kids whose parents are less engaged, for whatever reason. And the less engaged parents are more likely to be the poorer parents, so you're reducing the kids' chances to escape poverty. It is effectively what happens in urban areas where richer parents send their kids to private schools and disengage from the public school system.

Yet in the poorest areas of the world kids beg for pens/pencils and paper because they can then use that to go to school. Poverty can't really be the entire reason despite the close correlation.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#154

Post by mtbcoder »

noir-york wrote: post #136
qj4714 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The political system and Senate reflect the division in the country. There is no easy fix. The problem is people do not trust their government, which is reflective of the current political environment and is the primary reason these problems are not addressed.

Mixing cause and effect. The fundamental cause is how the constitution allocates power to the three branches. Power has a logic all of its own; each actor in the system acts in line with their power and this leads to the division and gridlock that you see. It is impossible to fix the US constitution under the current political system. There has to be a fundamental realignment of power and that will most likely only h…

I would think the cause of the ridiculous and nasty political divide stems more from campaign finance laws and media punditry masquerading as journalism rather than how the constitution allocates power to three branches of government. It seems to me that many Americans are taught daily to vilify anything that is put forth by an opposing party simply on the grounds of whether or not they have the correct letter prefixed to their title. I think the start of any fix would have to be campaign finance reform and a push for publicly funded elections.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#155

Post by analog31 »

w1ntermute wrote: post #18
rdtsc wrote: post #12

Great points. This, I think is one of the fundamental problems: --- If parents and local decision-makers really value education (and there is a small portion of the community that does), student and teacher morale would be much different. --- The overall environment matters more than the teacher. We've mentioned it here not too long ago as well. Doesn't matter how fancy the workbooks and new materials or how hard we…

If the problem is community, why not take the students/families who really do care (from all the schools in a metropolitan area) and put them all in the same school? That would at least be a start.

This sort of happens already, at least for families that are economically empowered. My spouse and I paid a premium for a house in a neighborhood that has good schools. Most of the parents in the school area have college or higher degrees.

In some other states, parents just put their kids in private schools.

This kind of economic segregation, in addition to kids receiving considerable support at home, can make it seem to those who only experience middle-and-above-class society, like education is OK. We do the same economically as we always have, because the underclass have always been the underclass. While this hardly seems moral, it has become more alarming since it seems like the underclass is gradually expanding.

It doesn't help families who care, but who can't afford an expensive house. Also, someone could really care a lot, but they are still at a disadvantage if:

1. They are a single parent working two or three minimum wage jobs to make ends meet, and just can't pay as much attention to their kids

2. They don't have the experience or the network of friends to help them deal with situations when things aren't going well enough at school, and their kids end up falling through the cracks

In my view, dismissing / blaming families for the condition of schools becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#156

Post by scott_s »

jdoenejdk wrote: post #140
waynemr wrote: post #9

The sad and infuriating thing is that good teachers leaving public service is precisely what conservative groups strive for, in their "starve the beast" agendas. As more quality staff leave, they [conservative groups] can claim greater and greater failures in the public system and siphon more tax dollars into private voucher schools.

Newsflash: US schools already spend the most per student in the world ($15,000), by far more than most nations, yet still perform at the bottom of OECD nations. Do you want to get your head out of your ass? http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-globa...

1. I think that number includes private money.

2. Comparing salaries across countries is not that useful - teachers aren't going to go to another country to teach. But they will go to another, higher paying job near them. So the more meaningful salary comparison to make is with the amount of education and work-time a teacher needs, how much do alternative jobs in the same area pay?

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#157

Post by scott_s »

loteck wrote: post #60

Do we care more about student progress or our appearance? We care about both, and we have to. Proposed solutions will have to cater to this reality to have any hope of success. Why can’t we start a movement to walk away from these tests? Because a ton of scared people think the tests are the safety net of education. They are the last resort. If you got a bad education and can still past the test, it's a quantifiable…

In other professions, when they want better candidates, they offer a better salary.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#158

Post by waspleg »

MarkMc wrote: post #149
rdtsc wrote: post #12

Great points. This, I think is one of the fundamental problems: --- If parents and local decision-makers really value education (and there is a small portion of the community that does), student and teacher morale would be much different. --- The overall environment matters more than the teacher. We've mentioned it here not too long ago as well. Doesn't matter how fancy the workbooks and new materials or how hard we…

> The overall environment matters more than the teacher. You seem to be suggesting that the quality of the teacher can play only a minor role in the educational outcome for disadvantaged students. Yet there is considerable evidence to support the opposite view. Here is a summary of a few studies as reported in Teaching as Leadership [1]: "The schools that are highly effective produce results that almost entirely over…

I work at a public high school. Marzano is currently overseeing the building I work in as our educational "partner". He hasn't set foot in a classroom since the 70s and is utterly clueless.

The article makes some good points and mirrors the experience of many ambitious teachers I've seen ground out of "the system".

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#159

Post by learnstats2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #116
femto wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three arguments against standardised tests: 1) As system, schools tend to teach towards the test, at the expense of a diverse education. 2) The tests essentially test how good a student is at doing tests, rather than what they have understood and learned. Children can do brilliantly in the classroom and badly on the test, then be marked as a poor student. 3) The tests are used to categorise the children as they go th…

I don't understand how someone can master a subject yet be unable to answer written questions about it. In my anecdotal 16 years of schooling, I can't recall a single instance of it.

With respect, you already said you (personally) couldn't identify subject mastery any way other than written tests. So this comment is simply a tautology.

You don't believe you can identify mastery any other way, so you don't identify it any other way, and so you believe that testing is the only way to identify mastery. OK, but this circular logic is broken.

You could show subject mastery by creating anything, or performing anything, or explaining something verbally to someone else, or by earning money in that field. Writing answers to test questions is rarely a relevant skill and more often tests whether you were told about the exam's quirks rather than mastery of the subject.

Re: The Tough Decision to Leave the Classroom

#160

Post by mikegioia »

chernevik wrote: post #131
loteck wrote: post #60

Do we care more about student progress or our appearance? We care about both, and we have to. Proposed solutions will have to cater to this reality to have any hope of success. Why can’t we start a movement to walk away from these tests? Because a ton of scared people think the tests are the safety net of education. They are the last resort. If you got a bad education and can still past the test, it's a quantifiable…

Yep. The tests are there because people don't trust the schools and looking for some independent means of motivating them to get better. Unfortunately, the testing architecture isn't entirely appropriate to the task -- but scrapping it just brings us back to the core problem. The reality is that many of the schools, and many of the teachers, are just bad. This can't be acknowledged in the public debate, so it isn't a…

How can you claim that teachers as a group don't deserve a higher status? You first say that the union's structure protects bad and mediocre teachers, which impacts teacher pay. And somehow that equates to teachers not deserving a higher social status? You have to explain that.
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