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Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

nytimes.com

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Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#151

Post by merrua »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #133
pcthrowaway wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Vancouver, police appear to be fairly hands-off (of course this is coming from a white male perspective, and I don't know enough black people here to have an idea of how different their experience is). And while we have a lot of drug activity, homelessness, streetwalking, etc. I believe there is a lower rate of violent/organized crime than NYC. Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun o…

> Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun ownership than Americans... That must be why Surrey had more homicides than Seattle in 2013, despite being a couple hundred thousand people smaller, and shall-issue CCW in Seattle. Maybe, just maybe, something else is involved.

Link to proof for Surrey crime stats/Seattle crime stats?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#152

Post by splintercell »

raldi wrote: post #22
byerley wrote: post #3

As someone who fancies libertarianism but who's wary of its effectiveness in practice, I'm hoping we get to see this impromptu social experiment play out long enough to gather some useful statistics.

What's the connection to libertarianism?

You know the part where he thinks libertarianism means complete lawlessness.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#153

Post by jerf »

saraid216 wrote: post #120
lkrubner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "broken windows" theory of police enforcement doesn't stand up when compared to other Western cities. A big part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. And yet, if you visit Berlin, you will see a city with a shocking amount of graffiti, but very little crime. If you visit parts of London you'll see run down industrial dist…

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the win…

The idea of the broken window theory isn't that the window was broken was any particular way. The idea is that the visual image of a broken window serves as a signal that the degree of social concern/cohesion/enforcement in the area is low, and will thus encourage further behaviors. Also, breaking the second window is psychologically easier than the first.

I say this without endorsement, just explanation. (I'm ready to believe the evidence suggests it doesn't actually work and that the real drop in crime was another cause, but, on the other hand, academics can sometimes just be contrarians too, it's not just an online thing, and I still give some credence to successful engineering efforts such that one ought to at least consider the original theory.)

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#154

Post by potatolicious »

saraid216 wrote: post #147
sparky_z wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It doesn't. > It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally Are you suggesting that no young vandal has ever broken a window on purpose? I assure you, it happens. > and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the window. Full stop. I don't…

> It doesn't. If it doesn't, then why does the theory call for small crimes to be punished?

jerf explains it well above - the theory is that the appearance of disorder begets more disorder. Whether that disorder is deliberately caused by bad actors is significant at the micro scale but somewhat moot at the macro scale.

i.e., a window broken by malicious act is a bad thing, but ultimately an accidentally broken window will also contribute to crime. The notion is that the appearance of disorder signals that such laws are poorly enforced, as well as decreases the level of responsibility and ownership people feel towards the place ("this place sucks already, what's one more...")

Note that I don't endorse this particular view ;)

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#155

Post by JoeAltmaier »

geoelectric wrote: post #149
saraid216 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the win…

You're taking it a little too literally. The theory is that once a situation seems less maintained, people will normalize that state and allow it to decline further. It's essentially a slippery slope argument, though I do think there's a little bit of psychological truth to the argument. But I also think there's a really high cost for trying to keep things perfect.

The cost is in cultural adaptation, not police work. Singapore has a high standard of public appearance and behavior. It comes at a cost. But they did succeed in creating the social norm. Without that the police effort is endless.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#156

Post by koenigdavidmj »

merrua wrote: post #151
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun ownership than Americans... That must be why Surrey had more homicides than Seattle in 2013, despite being a couple hundred thousand people smaller, and shall-issue CCW in Seattle. Maybe, just maybe, something else is involved.

Link to proof for Surrey crime stats/Seattle crime stats?

Seattle: http://www.seattle.gov/police/crime/13_Stats/2013_Major_Crim...

Surrey's was obtained from this article: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Surrey+murders+four+days+ho...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#158

Post by Ryel »

cynicalkane wrote: post #97
krschultz wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth of the matter is that we don't know why crime dropped over the last 30ish years. There are lots of theories, broken windows policing is just one of them. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/11/24/10-not-entirel...

The idea of tough, aggressive policing in New York has a lot of cultural momentum that will be hard to reverse. Despite the impression that Internet media subcultures try to create, New York is not united against police harassment. This is why de Blasio & co are being extremely careful to not politicize that incident where two policemen were randomly executed; and why the police union is doing its best to do the oppo…

I can't tell if you're disassociating yourself from the "many people" you mentioned or not, so I'm not sure how to word this, but... Just out of curiosity (because you seem like you have first-hand experience of the old NYC) What do you believe has had the most impact on decreasing crime in NYC? And what do you believe is the best solution going forward?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#159

Post by danans »

angersock wrote: post #82
ovulator wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling "[t]he duty to provide public services is owed to the public at large, and, absent a special relationship between the police and an individual, no specific legal duty exists." They still have the duty, but it does not necessarily apply on an individual basis.

So, they don't actually have the duty in any meaningful implementation sense, is what you're saying.

That's carrying it a bit far, and I don't think that's what the GP was saying at all.

I think they meant that police officers have a duty to enforce the law in each situation they are presented with. And law enforcement situations are composed of individuals, some of whom may or may not be breaking the law - we give the officer the right to make a snap judgement on this in emergencies.

For example, if an officer arrives at a situation where one individual is robbing another, then their duty to the public (and to the victim) is to try to prevent the robber from victimizing the other individual, or apprehend the robber if he has already committed the crime. In attempting to do so, they uphold their law enforcement duty to the public.

Just as much, it is important for the officer to follow the law in the process of enforcing it, which is at the crux of the debates around the death of unarmed individuals by police.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#160

Post by charonn0 »

ams6110 wrote: post #51
pyrophane wrote: post #28

From the Times editorial board: > If the Police Department’s current commanders cannot get the cops to do their jobs, Mr. de Blasio should consider replacing them. > He should invite the Justice Department to determine if the police are guilty of civil rights violations in withdrawing policing from minority communities. > He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state…

Or maybe he could just show them a little respect.

It's very hard to respect the petulant and passive-aggressive behavior they're displaying.
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