Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities • Hacker News Board

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#141

Post by lotsofmangos » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #26

Zigurd wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

> sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps People like to throw this line around... but I've yet to see an actual tank in the hands of a police department anywhere in the US. What I have seen are a lot of Armored Personnel Carriers (APC), which have no weaponry and are basically just heavily armored trucks designed specifically to protect the personnel inside (from riot, projectiles, bullets, explosi…

Well, it does look a lot like a tank - http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/13/t...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#142

Post by craigwblake » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

pcthrowaway wrote: post #62

krschultz wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth of the matter is that we don't know why crime dropped over the last 30ish years. There are lots of theories, broken windows policing is just one of them. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/11/24/10-not-entirel...

Here in Vancouver, police appear to be fairly hands-off (of course this is coming from a white male perspective, and I don't know enough black people here to have an idea of how different their experience is). And while we have a lot of drug activity, homelessness, streetwalking, etc. I believe there is a lower rate of violent/organized crime than NYC. Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun o…

Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun ownership than Americans...

I doubt our attitudes differ much with respect to violent criminals using guns (or knives or fists) to hurt people, as we are talking about here.

Attitudes on gun ownership by peaceable citizens may be another story.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#143

Post by buerkle » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #50

gharial wrote: post #29

I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were…

I'm suspecting that it will eventually prove that those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. NYC in the '70s and '80s was not that safe. Street crime, muggings, etc. were common. In the 1990s Giuliani stepped up patrols and sarted enforcing what most people thought were petty crimes, such as loitering, graffiti, parking violations, subway-gate-jumping, etc. with the effect that more serious crimes als…

Crime has been going down for decades across the United States including other major cities that did not have the same policies as Giuliani.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#144

Post by Chinjut » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:34 PM UTC

nsnick wrote: post #136

smtddr wrote: post #31

Let me add this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-bene... >>But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

That is not what begs the question means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

That's one thing "begs the question" was at one point used to mean. "begs the question" has also often been used to mean "begs for the question to be asked", which seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Your own link notes that the use of "begs the question" to mean "assumes the initial point" arose as a mistranslation of Latin. I see no reason to cling to that mistranslation as the only possible use of the English phrase.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#145

Post by joshuahedlund » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #89

gharial wrote: post #29

I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were…

The NY Post has been crowing about what a disaster this is and how it's de Blasio's fault. In my opinion, they're missing a tremendous opportunity. If you're an economic conservative, public unions should be your enemy #1. They have tremendous leverage in local politics, and the fat pensions they've voted for themselves are the top economic problem facing states and municipalities. Supporting de Blasio against the po…

> public unions should be your enemy #1... The union would find itself facing opposition from both liberals and conservatives (for different reasons)

I wish there was more discussion about this sort of thing. My pet hypothesis is that nobody holds police unions accountable because conservatives like police and liberals like unions. It's hard to even find discussion about the actual extent of police union influence, much less how bad the effects may or may not be and what should be done about it.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#146

Post by nyolfen » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:43 PM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #132

smtddr wrote: post #31

Let me add this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-bene... >>But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

> begs the question Gah. "Begging the question" means assuming something is already proved. Alas, people misuse "beg" as a synonym for "suggests" or "raises"...

phrases can take on new meanings and no one looks good whinging about prescriptivist language use dude

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#147

Post by saraid216 » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:52 PM UTC

sparky_z wrote: post #137

saraid216 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the win…

> I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It doesn't. > It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally Are you suggesting that no young vandal has ever broken a window on purpose? I assure you, it happens. > and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the window. Full stop. I don't…

> It doesn't.

If it doesn't, then why does the theory call for small crimes to be punished?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#148

Post by diyorgasms » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #89

gharial wrote: post #29

I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were…

The NY Post has been crowing about what a disaster this is and how it's de Blasio's fault. In my opinion, they're missing a tremendous opportunity. If you're an economic conservative, public unions should be your enemy #1. They have tremendous leverage in local politics, and the fat pensions they've voted for themselves are the top economic problem facing states and municipalities. Supporting de Blasio against the po…

I think the difference is that the Post and most right-wing media in the USA support not the libertarian notion of conservatism, but a more authoritarian version.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#149

Post by geoelectric » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #120

lkrubner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "broken windows" theory of police enforcement doesn't stand up when compared to other Western cities. A big part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. And yet, if you visit Berlin, you will see a city with a shocking amount of graffiti, but very little crime. If you visit parts of London you'll see run down industrial dist…

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the win…

You're taking it a little too literally. The theory is that once a situation seems less maintained, people will normalize that state and allow it to decline further.

It's essentially a slippery slope argument, though I do think there's a little bit of psychological truth to the argument. But I also think there's a really high cost for trying to keep things perfect.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#150

Post by scdlbx » Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 6:55 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #146

Terr_ wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> begs the question Gah. "Begging the question" means assuming something is already proved. Alas, people misuse "beg" as a synonym for "suggests" or "raises"...

phrases can take on new meanings and no one looks good whinging about prescriptivist language use dude

That literally kills me.