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Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

nytimes.com

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Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#131

Post by fennecfoxen »

pdabbadabba wrote: post #20
j_m_b wrote: post #7

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of peopl…

> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people. Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing. Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is…

> I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way...

"Wrong" maybe, but it's also statistically sound. Police 3 to 4 times more likely to shoot a black man but black men are 5.6 times more likely to shoot a police officer. (source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osband-what-statistics-say-... )

I think the relevant point from my source's editorial is this: "While these inferences aren’t fair to the vast majority on either side [(police or civilian)], they are rational responses to fear and uncertainty. As such, neither legislation nor indoctrination can banish them."

So I'm not sure it's fair to call police officers racist. It's certainly not old-school Racist in the form of a deliberate and systematic oppression of a minority or an opinion that they're genetically inferior.

(Disclaimer. This post is meant to provide insight into behavior of people, only. No specific public policy recommendation is hereby condemned or endorsed.)

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#132

Post by Terr_ »

smtddr wrote: post #31

Let me add this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-bene... >>But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

> begs the question

Gah. "Begging the question" means assuming something is already proved. Alas, people misuse "beg" as a synonym for "suggests" or "raises"...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#133

Post by koenigdavidmj »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #62
krschultz wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth of the matter is that we don't know why crime dropped over the last 30ish years. There are lots of theories, broken windows policing is just one of them. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/11/24/10-not-entirel...

Here in Vancouver, police appear to be fairly hands-off (of course this is coming from a white male perspective, and I don't know enough black people here to have an idea of how different their experience is). And while we have a lot of drug activity, homelessness, streetwalking, etc. I believe there is a lower rate of violent/organized crime than NYC. Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun o…

> Of course, Canadians have a much different attitude towards gun ownership than Americans...

That must be why Surrey had more homicides than Seattle in 2013, despite being a couple hundred thousand people smaller, and shall-issue CCW in Seattle.

Maybe, just maybe, something else is involved.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#134

Post by raldi »

everyOtherTime wrote: post #124
raldi wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't an ad hominem attack, but an ad hominem greeting.

> assuming I'm new here. Hi, I see that you have more than 500 karma, so you probably downvoted me. That's great, because I created this throw-away account specifically because of thin-skinned people like you. Did that last sentence also come across as an ad hominem attack?

The fact that you're taking the time to make an account and post comments tells me that you value the ability to influence people's minds.

Posting ad hominem attacks on Hacker News is counterproductive to that goal. It will attract downvotes, which will turn your comment white and make it hard to read. Comments that are hard to read don't work very well for influencing people.

Also, even if your comment weren't downvoted, ad hominems still tend to inhibit your words' ability to change people's minds. You'll be a more effective writer if you eschew them.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#135

Post by pdabbadabba »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #131
pdabbadabba wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of people. Amen. I also hate that this was brought about by, it would seem, police officers pouting about the public and the mayor finally speaking out against biased policing. Edit: I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is…

> I know policing is hard. And frankly, I sympathize with a police officer who finds himself more intimidated by a black man on the street than a white man. It is racist and wrong to respond that way... "Wrong" maybe, but it's also statistically sound. Police 3 to 4 times more likely to shoot a black man but black men are 5.6 times more likely to shoot a police officer. (source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/kent-osban…

There is a salient statistic that you (and the WSJ editorial) have overlooked: what are the actual odds that an officer will be shot by any given black man? They are greater, you say, than an officer's chances of being shot by a white man, but is the risk objectively large? I think the answer to this is clearly no.

So while it might be rational for an officer to behave as though he is more likely to be shot, this is different from responding as though he is likely to be shot. Unfortunately, they are doing the latter entirely too often. Perhaps this is the result of natural cognitive biases (some combination of confirmation bias and negativity bias, maybe), amplified by the images we all see in the media. These are powerful forces that, I think, most of us struggle with. But that does not mean that cops, who are supposed to be highly trained professionals, entrusted with powerful weapons, and the preservation of public safety, do not have a duty to overcome these biases.

(I agree it's not what you've called "old-school racist." But it makes no difference. Old-school racism is not the only bad kind of racism. [Is there a good kind?])

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#136

Post by nsnick »

smtddr wrote: post #31

Let me add this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-bene... >>But the police union's phrasing—officers shouldn't make arrests "unless absolutely necessary"—begs the question: How many unnecessary arrests was the NYPD making before now?

That is not what begs the question means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#137

Post by sparky_z »

saraid216 wrote: post #120
lkrubner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "broken windows" theory of police enforcement doesn't stand up when compared to other Western cities. A big part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. And yet, if you visit Berlin, you will see a city with a shocking amount of graffiti, but very little crime. If you visit parts of London you'll see run down industrial dist…

> A bit part of the "broken windows" theory is that small crimes, such as graffiti, created an atmosphere that allowed worse crimes to happen. I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action. It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally, and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the win…

> I've always been confused as to why the broken windows theory presumes that the window is broken because of malicious action.

It doesn't.

> It seems obvious to me that the window was broken accidentally

Are you suggesting that no young vandal has ever broken a window on purpose? I assure you, it happens.

> and as such, the correct response (in police action and otherwise) is to repair the window. Full stop.

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. Has anybody ever seriously argued that the police should punish accidental window breaking? Conversely, if a police officer witnesses somebody throw a rock through a window without cause, should he not stop them?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#138

Post by bequanna »

utefan001 wrote: post #94

Stopping the aggressive pursuit of people selling individual cigarettes would be a good place to start. If cigarette taxes are too damn high, people will find a cheaper way to smoke. Quit picking on poor people that smoke. Note: I don't smoke or drink.

If the cigarettes were purchased as a pack at a retail store, then resold individually, the tax has already been paid.

>Quit picking on poor people that smoke.

Are you referring to cigarette taxes or the law banning the selling individual cigarettes?

If the former, as a non-smoker, I do not wish to continue covering the cost of health care for those that choose to smoke.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#139

Post by jff »

bsg75 wrote: post #116
maxerickson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the people quoted in the article says "Of course that’s a good thing, because the traffic officers just want your money," he said on Tuesday morning in Queens. "Now I have the right to park a bit more." I suppose he still understands that he is not really supposed to park where he is parking, but it says something about his outlook.

> it says something about his outlook Apparently he believes he has the "right" to park wherever he pleases. We are left to wonder if he has the common sense to avoid blocking hydrants, etc.

Well, if he blocks a hydrant and the fire department needs to use it, they will grab their leakiest hose, smash his windows out, and run that hose right through the car. I've seen pictures, it's pretty sweet justice.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#140

Post by whiddershins »

I wish they would stick with it. This is the New York I grew up in, and loved so much. I don't believe the broken windows theory, and i think Freakonomics made a good statistical argument it is the number of police, rather than the style, that reduces violent crime.

I think funding your government through tickets and summonses is hostile to quality of life. And detainment or imprisonment for minor offenses is imho a human rights violation.

So great.

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