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Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

nytimes.com

21–30 of 192 posts

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#21
post #6
post #5

If these minor offenses are not affecting crime then are they offenses whose only purpose is to generate revenue? If the city has not imploded then is that not sufficient evidence to get a discussion about the existence of these offenses?

I would guess that there hasn't been enough time for people to realize their minor infractions will no longer get punished.

Is the fear of punishment the only thing that keeps people from doing criminal acts?

1. People speed and park wrongly despite both of these being illegal

2. A huge majority of people aren't assholes all the time, despite this not being illegal

3. Murders do get committed though it's illegal

4. Most stuff isn't stolen even though it is very difficult to catch someone breaking into houses

There's a book called Three Felonies A Day which posits that the average American commits three serious crimes every day despite the overwhelming majority of those folks not meaning to. https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=three+felonies+a+day The reason for this is that the laws are written broadly enough that entirely innocent acts could be construed to be strict-liability crimes that require absolute adherence; intent does not enter into the equation.

If society is not falling apart even if the average American is in fact committing three felonies a day, then it stands to reason that perhaps the law as a whole is over-written and could stand to be reduced. This new informal policing policy in New York might end up being further evidence of such problems.

Further people have found that in many cases persuasion is much more effective than compulsion. In the UK they've found that they can replace speed cameras (which issue tickets) with radar controlled signs that display smiley or frowny faces and that's much more effective at getting people to slow down. The theory goes that compulsion is a very ephemeral threat and that the police can't be everywhere at once ticketing everyone who's speeding all the time and people know it. But just asking them to slow down with no threat is more effective since it's polite.

https://www.google.com/webhp?q=speed+cameras+persuasion+comp...

A similar theory was used to great effect by King Frederick of Prussia to get people to eat potatoes. Decrees did nothing to make people plant them, but declaring the potato to be a royal food and nobody but the king could eat it caused people to plant it either out of spite or a desire to flout the rules. http://www.historynet.com/ask-mhq-king-frederick-ii-of-pruss...

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#22
post #3

As someone who fancies libertarianism but who's wary of its effectiveness in practice, I'm hoping we get to see this impromptu social experiment play out long enough to gather some useful statistics.

What's the connection to libertarianism?

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#23
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

Most of the shiny toys' cost (capex, training, maintenance) is not paid by the NYPD, but through grants/subsidies from the Department of Homeland Security's anti-terrorism programs. So, cutting that would be great, but wouldn't do much for NYPD's bottom line.

I'd take a significant bet that opex is much higher than capex for that stuff.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#24
post #22
post #3

As someone who fancies libertarianism but who's wary of its effectiveness in practice, I'm hoping we get to see this impromptu social experiment play out long enough to gather some useful statistics.

What's the connection to libertarianism?

Less taxation. Police officers are effectively just tax collectors.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the connection to libertarianism?

Less taxation. Police officers are effectively just tax collectors.

I'm not sure that NYC residents who have been subjected to profiling and stop-and-frisk harassment would agree with that characterization.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#26
post #12
post #2

New York public employees cannot strike, so this is the labor action available to them. The union should think carefully though. If life just goes on without the nanny-state tickets and other revenue generators, the thought process may change. Maybe more fare jumping and double-parking would be ok, and we can live with that -- but with 10,000 fewer policemen. 10,000 * $100,000 = less need for ticket revenue.

The effectiveness of cost-cutting in the NYPD would be multiplied if they started with the shiny toys first. Cut the number of SWAT teams, sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps, and cut the spies and surveillance gear first, and you'll be able to keep a lot more of the useful police who might then be able to focus on boosting their solution rates for crimes people care about.

> sell off the armored division's tanks, to Ukraine perhaps

People like to throw this line around... but I've yet to see an actual tank in the hands of a police department anywhere in the US. What I have seen are a lot of Armored Personnel Carriers (APC), which have no weaponry and are basically just heavily armored trucks designed specifically to protect the personnel inside (from riot, projectiles, bullets, explosions, etc).

With that said, I have no issue with a police department using an APC in a situation where bodily harm may come to them (SWAT situation, riot situation, terrorist situation, bomb situation, etc).

And "riot" is not to be confused with "peaceful protest". Riots are bad; people and property get damaged.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#27
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess that there hasn't been enough time for people to realize their minor infractions will no longer get punished.

Is the fear of punishment the only thing that keeps people from doing criminal acts? 1. People speed and park wrongly despite both of these being illegal 2. A huge majority of people aren't assholes all the time, despite this not being illegal 3. Murders do get committed though it's illegal 4. Most stuff isn't stolen even though it is very difficult to catch someone breaking into houses There's a book called Three Fe…

I have not read that book, but the answer here sort of blows it up:

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22530/does-the-a...

(That too many things are crimes is probably something I agree with; that accounting companies must only destroy documents according to retention policies and not after they find out one of their clients is a giant fraud is not something that worries me)

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#28
From the Times editorial board:

> If the Police Department’s current commanders cannot get the cops to do their jobs, Mr. de Blasio should consider replacing them.

> He should invite the Justice Department to determine if the police are guilty of civil rights violations in withdrawing policing from minority communities.

> He should remind the police that they are public employees, under oath to uphold city and state laws.

I could not agree more.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#29
I work in Manhattan and visit fairly shitty areas of Brooklyn and Queens regularly. These past few weeks have been the first time since I moved here that I've felt safe in the presence of cops. I'd read about enforcement being down just after the funeral for the officers shot in the Bronx but it really didn't click until a pair of them walked down the street by me in Chelsea. They didn't look at my SO like they were ready to beat the shit out of him for once. They were actually laughing and looked approachable.

I think all this little passive aggressive "protest" will prove is that the world isn't going to end when the police stop hassling the young, non-white and homeless. I'm surprised they don't realize they're pulling the curtain back on their own charade.

Re: Life in New York City, Where Arrests Are Down and Tickets Are Rarities

#30
post #7

I think this most recent trend in the police department has a huge potential to backfire. Perhaps this will highlight the fact that in the US, our lives have become over-criminalized and over-monitored by an increasingly growing police force and that we simply don't need so many officers and laws. This would be a good thing in America. However, I hate the fact that this change was brought about by the deaths of peopl…

It's all relative I guess. Here in the Nola we desperately, DESPERATELY need more cops.
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