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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#201

Post by nekopa »

chton wrote: post #125
rmc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is, to me, a sign of an unhealthy culture. Fix that before trying yet another vacation experiment. And one way to fix it is to give everyone lots of paid time off.

Is it? People will still feel guilty when taking time off, and it's possible that forcing people to take time off means the vacation time will be even less respected. "I won't bother that person, they'll need the time" vs "they're just making sure they meet the quota".

But should time off happen only because 'they need the time'? How about having it so people don't get to the point of needing time off?

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#202

Post by artmageddon »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #171
encoderer wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Trulia we have an unlimited vacation policy and it really does work for us. People routinely take extended, foreign trips of two or more weeks. This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total, 2 on proper vacation and one week each with my family and my wife's. So take this as an anecdotal data point. Oh, and come work for Trulia, we need great iOS and Android engineers desperately.

> This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total So...basically a standard amount of vacation? I love the sound of unlimited vacation as a perk, but I'm worried I'd just get fired for "abusing it". I'd probably take something like 10 weeks/year

I think that depends on where you're from. Being in the US, my first job gave me the "standard" 4 weeks off, and I thought I was being spoiled by it. My current company only gives us 2 weeks off(ok, plus a week for Christmas but I only sort of count that..), and most people I know only get two weeks.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#203

Post by kabdib »

walshemj wrote: post #137
jcadam wrote: post #34

I like this idea of minimum vacation. Most companies I've worked in use vacation days as some sort of reward for sticking with the company for X number of years (i.e., "When you hit your 5 year anniversary, you get an extra 1.5 days of paid vacation. Won't that be nice!"). And when I say paid vacation, I really mean PTO with no separate 'sick leave' days. Which means people show up to work sick. Funny enough, the com…

Hmm is that not a breach of contract could in a tech company lead to an exodus of staff.

You shouldn't be surprised at the number of execs who don't really care. at. all. about attrition, and who are clueless about what motivates engineers.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#204

Post by encoderer »

shawabawa3 wrote: post #189
encoderer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find 4 weeks to be a "lot" of vacation time, but I think the hundred million workers or so who have 2 weeks or less every year would disagree that 4 weeks is "standard." On top of that I took 2 weeks of remote work. That said, if you're an awesome engineer (especially mobile -- Trulia has about a dozen mobile apps to build out), and you want 10 weeks every year, lets talk. I don't hire for the mobile teams so…

I'm not actually a mobile dev :/ But you've highlighted the problem I have with "unlimited" vacation. If I have to negotiate for 10 weeks, then I don't have unlimited, I have 4 weeks with possibly some extra but I don't know how much extra until i'm told off for taking it

No negotiation is required. The policy is 'we don't track vacation days' and that would be just as true for you looking for 10 weeks as it is for me who took 4. I'm not a benchmark-setter (or follower) I just happened to take 4 weeks so that's what I shared.

That said, you can't expect it to be considered in a vacuum. If you want to take 2.5 months of vacation, your work does need to be unimpeachably strong, and your dedication needs to be obvious to your teammates.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#205

Post by jarek »

evanpw wrote: post #194

I don't think I see a single negative comment here about long vacations, so allow me to play devil's advocate. (These questions don't necessarily reflect my own opinions.) 1. If this is such a free lunch (employees are both happier and more productive overall), then why isn't lots of vacation offered everywhere (in the US)? Can it really be the case that the vast majority of US companies are too short-sighted to make…

> Can it really be the case that the vast majority of US companies are too short-sighted to make a policy change that would be in their own best interest?

You can ask that about anything. Are the U.S. banks really so short-sighted to offer absolutely crap person-to-person transfers and get undercut by any number of hacky startups? Were the U.S. car manufacturers really so stupid? Are California taxpayers really too short-sighted to realize how Prop 13 hurts the state? The entire federal administration in lead-up to the Iraq invasion? Etc, etc

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#207

Post by tspike »

mightybyte wrote: post #190
Someone1234 wrote: post #30

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

> According to this study[1] you need at least ten consecutive days of leave to "de-stress" from work. Short vacations aren't as effective as long ones. That can't be true across the board. I haven't taken a vacation in 3 or 4 years by that definition. And frankly, I feel fine. I work with awesome people solving cool problems and love what I do. I've had friends tell me I should take a vacation, and my response is, "…

The fact that you're an outlier doesn't mean that the findings of the study are invalid. There are lots of people who are genuinely good at their jobs, but who would do something completely different with their lives if a billion dollars dropped into their laps. Those people stand to gain much more from a long vacation than you do.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#208

Post by organsnyder »

zelos wrote: post #143
organsnyder wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but many employers aren't required to offer maternity leave (let alone paternity leave). My wife has had to combine accrued vacation time, sick days, and unpaid leave just to get to six weeks of maternity leave.

That's pretty crazy. Do many companies actually tend to provide maternity leave as a benefit? It makes a bit of a joke of gender equality in the workplace, IMHO.

U.S. employers above a certain size are required by the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) to provide some unpaid maternity/medical leave. Small employers (such as where my wife works) are exempt from any requirement, and it varies according to the employer and what the job market requires (i.e. not much for most fields). Also, part-time workers receive absolutely zero protection.

The United States is incredibly backward in this regard (among many others). Combined with our lack of support for childcare (tax breaks are meaningless when you're not making enough money), it's no wonder that we're well behind most of the rest of the world when it comes to workforce participation rates for women.

In my experience, most white-collar jobs tend to provide two weeks of paid vacation, a week or so of personal/sick days, and—if they're generous—some [mp]aternity leave (I get one week at my current job). Due to the labor market, tech jobs tend to be more generous, but even the most generous policies by US standards tend to fall short of the minimum required policies in more enlightened nations.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#210

Post by philwelch »

liveoneggs wrote: post #19
turnip1979 wrote: post #11

Genuine question: how do companies/teams that run services deal with peak vacation periods? E.g. Christmas holidays. Even if everyone wants to take the last two weeks of the year off, you have to have someone keeping the lights on. Also, what happens if a high priority problem comes in? Are the team leads/managers careful not to schedule work around the holidays?

I am on vacation next week but am still the primary on-call. I will take pages if I'm available or pass/escalate to the next guy if I'm not. Since I'm on vacation it's understood to be a best effort. Normally I would switch with someone but it's a busy vacation week so we just figure it out. I took a two hour call the morning of thanksgiving, for reference.

That sounds like a shitty vacation combined with doing a bad job at being oncall.
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