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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#181
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad that works in the US. Here in Australia you have to give a full time employee a minimum of four weeks (paid), which accrues if unused. So somebody at a company with unlimited vacation would be no worse off of they never took holidays than someone who worked at a company with the regular 4 weeks.

I'm an Australian living in Japan. I moved here 2 months ago. Most Japanese get around 3 weeks of annual leave per year - but each day expires after 24 months. It is quite common for leave to expire.

> Most Japanese get around 3 weeks of annual leave per year - but each day expires after 24 months. > It is quite common for leave to expire.

Japan has the same problem as the US in this case, your worth is tied to your work, the more it appears you're working hard, the more worth (and self-worth) you feel you have.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#182

> A company has to learn how to function when people are on vacation and unavailable, however important their role is. Yes, this is essential for having a viable company. If the company grinds to a halt without person X , the solution is not to get rid of person X 's vacation. Also, in finance, required vacations are often a compliance aid. If someone is running a scam, it tends to need near-daily tending, and it wil…

Wow, remind me never to work in finance, too much paranoia for me (though I do know it's justified a lot of the time- I taught some IT folks at a bank once and they told me about a branch manager who went on holiday and forgot to turn off his automated money siphoning software. That was the only reason he got caught)

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#183
I'd like to see the inclusion of data related to the structure and dynamics of the family unit. In the US the family desintegrates as kids are encouraged to leave home as soon as they finish high scool, say, 18 years of age.

This, in a huge number of cultures and countries around the world is an unthinkable attrocity. It isn't uncommon to have children live with their parents until they are ready to form their own families, say, 25 to 30 years of age. Under the stereotypical US culture this is looked down upon to the point of making fun of those still living with their parents.

Having millions of socially unprepared kids go off to try to make it on their own created, in my opinion, a society filled with various levels of dysfunctionalities. People tend to grow up, to some degree, in a "wild" setting where selfishness can become a necessity. In this context it is easy to see how work time can take the place of the social context lost due to having left the nest.

Having grown up and lived in three cultures it is easy for me to remove myself from my US culture and watch it from afar as a visitor from another planet might. Americans are said to seem socially inept and dry from the perspective of other cultures, and this is true. All you have to do is spend six months in Italy or Argentina to undrerstand this. Americans men develop a weird homophobic form of "macho" that is down-right funny from the perspective of other cultures. Hugging, or worst, kissing, another man is frowned upon. Human contact, in general, is just not considered to be "normal". I have lived in cultures where it was quite normal to greet your kids parents with hugs and kisses on the cheeks. In fact, it would be rude to come to a party or gathering and not go around the room kissing everyone, man, woman, kids. Yes, you kiss your friend's wives. School friends do this in high school when they greet each other. Again, unthinkable in the US. In fact, a teacher can get in trouble with the law for greeting a student with a hug and a kiss. Showing affection is alien. Weird.

In general terms, as much as TV shows and commercial try to stereotype this warm southern cowboy culture at the ranch with grandma this is, for the mist part, not the norm. The US family scatters and the kids are left to navigate a very important phase of their lives on their own.

Sorry to harp on this but i do think this is a very important part of the equation and one that explains so much about US society, their behaviors, beliefs, relationships, work and family life. Once you realize that some of these people become politicians that shape US policies and laws it is easy to see where some of our problems might come from.

There are subtle examples of this. For example, let's say you are working with a US friend on a project in their garage. He will use phrases like "give me my hammer" or "it's in my toolbox". In other cultures this becomes "give me the hammer" and "it's in the toolbox". I am convinced this egocentric view of the world is connected to leaving the nest early.

Another example that is particularly bothersome to me are cases where parents pay their children for things that in what I am going to call more socially adjusted societies is simply unthinkable. One of my friends pays his 18 year old kid to go pick him up at the airport. Another pays his kids to help paint the house. My neighbor across the street pays his kid to mow the lawn. Viewed from far more family-centric cultures these woukd be examples of seriously dysfunctional family units. As a teenager I helped my parents in their business. Money was never a part of it. This is simply how a family behaves in other cultures.

Of course I am painting with a wide brush. There are lots of cases of families that behave very differently from this. And, of course, the US has lots of multicultural families, such as mine. Yet I still think that a huge portion of the attitude towards work has to do with a bunch of single people existing "in the wild" and a setting where work can easily become a substitute for the family unit they effectively lost.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Trulia we have an unlimited vacation policy and it really does work for us. People routinely take extended, foreign trips of two or more weeks. This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total, 2 on proper vacation and one week each with my family and my wife's. So take this as an anecdotal data point. Oh, and come work for Trulia, we need great iOS and Android engineers desperately.

> This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total So...basically a standard amount of vacation? I love the sound of unlimited vacation as a perk, but I'm worried I'd just get fired for "abusing it". I'd probably take something like 10 weeks/year

I don't find 4 weeks to be a "lot" of vacation time, but I think the hundred million workers or so who have 2 weeks or less every year would disagree that 4 weeks is "standard." On top of that I took 2 weeks of remote work.

That said, if you're an awesome engineer (especially mobile -- Trulia has about a dozen mobile apps to build out), and you want 10 weeks every year, lets talk. I don't hire for the mobile teams so I can't speak for them but I am certain that would at least love to talk to you.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#185
post #38
post #33

very good. Except "now has a required minimum of 25 (paid) vacation days per year, no matter what country they live in." Well no. If they live in the UK for example they have a mandatory limit of 28 days not 25 because it's the law.

But is that an enforced minimum? Is an employee required to take that many days off work? Because that's the distinction being drawn here.

Yes, it is. And, just, seriously, what sort of a society doesn't mandate holidays?

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#186
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the most important points in the article is that forcing people to take vacation, and encouraging them to be completely unavailable, means that the company must learn how to survive the absence of a team member. It forces you to reduce the bus-factor, and this is critical. I ask my team members to take at least 20 days off per year (we also have an unlimited vacation policy) and I'll be using this argu…

How do you do this without creating a bloated organization? For example if you have 20 team members and expect for 2 to be gone for some kind of vacation at any point. When all are at work you have a 10% inefficiency. I wonder if it would be more effective to have have stretches of intense work (4-6 months) with long rest periods (1-3 months) between. This would minimize the operational switching frequency, though it…

The only way to be able to quantify "10%" is if you have the ability to predict the future perfectly. If you don't have any stockpiled bandwidth you will have big issues if anyone leaves the company for any reason, and you will also not be able to easily take advantage of any unexpected opportunities that come your way. I wouldn't call it a bloated organization, more like a flexible organization.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#187
post #64
post #61

As a counterpoint, most investment banks enfore a mandatory 10 working day break where all remote access capabilities are disabled (including blackberries). This is less out of altruism, and more so that any untoward activities can be uncovered whilst the person is out of the office.

This is less out of altruism, and more so that any untoward activities can be uncovered whilst the person is out of the office. I'd love to hear more about that.

Here's an example:

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/easy-street/credi...

Everyone has at least a two-week period every year when they are completely cut off from the job. If you have been doing something off-the-books, that's enough time for it to explode. Or, if the auditing department suspects you of something -- or even if they don't -- this is the natural time to bring in forensics to dig through your books and figure out exactly you've been doing.

It's not as important in non-finance, but it can still have some use. I know of at least two cases where a sysadmin was on vacation and then outsiders were brought in to find all the backdoors he had installed.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This year I will be taking 4 weeks off in total So...basically a standard amount of vacation? I love the sound of unlimited vacation as a perk, but I'm worried I'd just get fired for "abusing it". I'd probably take something like 10 weeks/year

I don't find 4 weeks to be a "lot" of vacation time, but I think the hundred million workers or so who have 2 weeks or less every year would disagree that 4 weeks is "standard." On top of that I took 2 weeks of remote work. That said, if you're an awesome engineer (especially mobile -- Trulia has about a dozen mobile apps to build out), and you want 10 weeks every year, lets talk. I don't hire for the mobile teams so…

I'm not actually a mobile dev :/

But you've highlighted the problem I have with "unlimited" vacation. If I have to negotiate for 10 weeks, then I don't have unlimited, I have 4 weeks with possibly some extra but I don't know how much extra until i'm told off for taking it

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#190

I've said it before and I'll say it again, unlimited days off (or "open") and zero days off are identical. If you have unlimited vacation people are inclined to take less and people respect the vacation you take less ("as you can always take more!"). Here's a study[0] (PDF) called "Overwhelmed America: Why Don’t We Use Our Earned Leave?" It is biased (travel association) but interesting nonetheless. According to this…

> According to this study[1] you need at least ten consecutive days of leave to "de-stress" from work. Short vacations aren't as effective as long ones.

That can't be true across the board. I haven't taken a vacation in 3 or 4 years by that definition. And frankly, I feel fine. I work with awesome people solving cool problems and love what I do. I've had friends tell me I should take a vacation, and my response is, "why?" I enjoy my time at the office and I enjoy my leisure activities away from the office. I typically work more than 40 hours, but it doesn't matter. Sometimes I'll put in 12-hour days for awhile, but I always make sure to get some recharging time. The longest "vacation" I've taken in the last 4 years was something like a long Thursday - Monday weekend. Those leave me feeling plenty recharged and ready to get back. I can even get that from a lazy Sunday where I just stay home and relax.

If a billion dollars dropped into my lap tomorrow, I probably wouldn't do much differently. I might think about taking some time off, but I'm working on things I actually want to accomplish. Even if I did just take off on an extended vacation, I'm pretty sure I'd want to get back to my current job before too long. Part of me might want to work fewer hours since I wouldn't need the money, but that would probably slow down my rate of progress on the things that I want to accomplish.

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