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Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

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Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#141

Post by Blackthorn »

debacle wrote: post #40
sportanova wrote: post #2

Of course the other reason for 'unlimited vacation' is so when an employee leaves, the company doesn't have to pay them for unused vacation days. Huge red flag when a company has 'unlimited vacation'

IIRC, the company doesn't have to pay you for unused vacation days even if you don't use them. It's pretty much at the discretion of the company.

There's a pretty simple "hack" around this problem: use them all as you're leaving. If it's paid vacation, you'll get paid for the days.

Doesn't help if you're fired, of course.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#143

Post by zelos »

organsnyder wrote: post #83
CalRobert wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside tech (which is dripping with privilege) it's common to have 0-2 weeks of vacation in the US. There is no legal minimum, and I've had jobs offering 0, 1, and 2 weeks of vacation. In some cases you can take time off and simply not be paid for it.

Not only that, but many employers aren't required to offer maternity leave (let alone paternity leave). My wife has had to combine accrued vacation time, sick days, and unpaid leave just to get to six weeks of maternity leave.

That's pretty crazy. Do many companies actually tend to provide maternity leave as a benefit?

It makes a bit of a joke of gender equality in the workplace, IMHO.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#144

Post by dragonwriter »

ahuth wrote: post #127
dragonwriter wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should have no sympathy for 'balance sheet' or accounting reasons for anything. I don't see what sympathy has to do with it. The state of the balance sheet is a concrete concern for investors, and therefore for companies seeking investors, independently of whether you have sympathy for it or not. > Regardless of how much vacation time is on the books as a liability, the company's cash flows are exactly the same.…

Sympathy may have been a poor choice of word. What I meant was: accounting considerations should not have any bearing on how companies treat employees. Especially when the 'accounting' is not something that actually affects the money coming in/out of the company. The liabilities may matter to investors, but that doesn't mean that they actually affect the business. If I have all of my vacation days left or none, there…

> The liabilities may matter to investors, but that doesn't mean that they actually affect the business.

If they affect investors, they (1) effect the current owners, serving whose interests is the whole purpose of having a business, and (2) they affect the company's ability to secure financing and the terms of that financing, which affects every aspect of its business.

So, no, you're just plain wrong here.

> If I have all of my vacation days left or none, there is zero impact on the the company's business.

It has exactly the same impact on a company's business as any other debt, which is substantially more than none.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#145

Post by tlrobinson »

sportanova wrote: post #2

Of course the other reason for 'unlimited vacation' is so when an employee leaves, the company doesn't have to pay them for unused vacation days. Huge red flag when a company has 'unlimited vacation'

Or just take your vacation right before you leave...

Seems like a good opportunity to test the limits of these "unlimited" vacation policies.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#148

Post by steveklabnik »

johnward wrote: post #123
microtonal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two or even three weeks seems very unhealthy to me: - You need a longer break to seriously disconnect: at least two weeks. - Around Christmas/New Year you probably want to be around family and friends: one week. - At least a week distributed over the year to do something fun with your kid, visit that distant friend, etc. Maybe it's because I come from Western Europe, where getting 5 weeks (25-30 days) off in total is…

Some people in the US get no paid vacation at all and work on public holidays.

Back when I used to work at a pizza shop, the only two days a year we were closed were Christmas and Thanksgiving. Easter day was a half-day. Nobody was allowed to request off New Years or the Super Bowl.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#149

Post by nilkn »

butwhy wrote: post #12

Why do companies even try out these weird policies? They've gone from having unlimited days (then admitted it was a mistake for 2 whole years) and are now blindly trying out another unusual strategy. I don't see why they don't just offer a standard solution which seems to work for most companies, instead of trying to be extremely controlling of people.

There's a major problem in the US when it comes to PTO. I don't think you can really fault people for trying to work it out a bit better.

PTO is a bit pathological at my current company, for instance, and if I could change anything about my job, it'd be this. But I've found this is representative of a ton of jobs in the US.

First, basically everybody works when taking PTO. The founders work full-time when they take PTO, but just from home or the beach or whatever. Regular employees, with a few exceptions, don't work that much, but are generally expected, via some unspoken convention, to be available for any emergencies and to reply to emails and bug reports, etc.

You have no separate queue of "sick days". So you definitely don't want to use all your PTO for actual vacation time, because then you're in a pickle if you actually get sick. Or what if you have kids, and your kid unexpectedly gets really sick? You have to use PTO for that. There's nothing quite like using PTO when you're sick and still being generally available for emails and emergencies.

Mandatory vacation time would set a precedent of not being afraid to take true vacations during which you truly don't work.

Re: Travis CI: From Open to Minimum Vacation Policy

#150

Post by csorrell »

organsnyder wrote: post #83
CalRobert wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside tech (which is dripping with privilege) it's common to have 0-2 weeks of vacation in the US. There is no legal minimum, and I've had jobs offering 0, 1, and 2 weeks of vacation. In some cases you can take time off and simply not be paid for it.

Not only that, but many employers aren't required to offer maternity leave (let alone paternity leave). My wife has had to combine accrued vacation time, sick days, and unpaid leave just to get to six weeks of maternity leave.

When my daughter was born I chose to stay home for 2 weeks to be with my new family. I was working a shit job without PTO and ended up having to take out a loan to cover living expenses for the missed time.

The whole thing still leaves a bitter taste for me... Paternity leave would have been a great relief.

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