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US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

intelligence.senate.gov

281–290 of 579 posts

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

We haven't apologized, we haven't made restitution, and we sure as heck haven't prosecuted the guilty (as required by the convention against torture). I'm struggling to see any saving grace.

Nope and the DOJ is standing by their decision not to indict anyone after performing an investigation five years ago [0].

Doesn't seem shocking these days. Can't prosecute the good ol boys club.

[0] - http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/doj-stan...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone suggesting debating if rape is acceptable should be slapped on the head and considered an idiot Meanwhile, jokes about prison rape are socially acceptable & the US government refuses to do much of anything to stop it.

Criminals are apparently considered unworthy of civil rights. Just witness how many people justify the recent high-profile police killings by pointing out that one victim had previously robbed a convenience store and another one was selling cigarettes on the black market. In many people's minds, "selling illegal cigarettes" equates to "OK to kill in the street." Given that, it's no wonder that prison conditions aren'…

> Just witness how many people justify the recent high-profile police killings by pointing out that one victim had previously robbed a convenience store and another one was selling cigarettes on the black market

I haven't seen many people use Brown's robbing the convenience store (and assaulting the shopkeeper) to justify his shooting. It's his attacking the officer and trying to take the officer's gun that is typically used as justification.

The convenience store was relevant before the forensic evidence was available, because at the time we had to choose between two stories, neither of which made much sense:

1. Cop with no prior evidence of problems flips out for no apparent reason and blows away a young man who he had stopped for jaywalking, or

2. Young man who was kind, gentle, non-violent and never harmed anyone flips out for no apparent reason and attacks a cop who is just trying to tell him to walk on the sidewalk.

Both of these require someone to be acting way out of known character. Add in the convenience store, and we know that Brown was already acting way out of character that day, just moments before the shooting, which tips the probabilities way in favor of #2.

Now that the forensic evidence is available and backs #2, there are two questions that we should be asking.

1. Why was Brown acting so out of character that day?

Or were we seeing the "real" Brown that day, and the character he presented to family, teachers, clergy, etc., was a front? If so, then we should be finding out how he fooled them, so that in the future teachers and clergy can do a better job of recognizing such people and intervening.

2. Why did Officer Wilson allow himself to get into a position where Brown could attack him and go for his gun?

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#283
post #25

> Interrogation techniques such as slaps and "wallings" (slamming detainees against a wall) were used in combination, frequently concurrent with sleep deprivation and nudity. Records do not support CIA representations that the CIA initially used an "an open, non-threatening approach," or that interrogations began with the "least coercive technique possible" and escalated to more coercive techniques only as necessary.…

> Torture should be like rape. Anyone suggesting debating if rape is acceptable should be slapped on the head and considered an idiot.

How do you know we haven't used rape as torture? We've already walked up to that line, with medically unnecssary anal rehydration acknowledged as a form of control.

So, we are debating the appropriateness of rape. And yes, that sickens me.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

It's a step... It's worth something but it's not like there wasn't a ton of resistance to it. The question on my mind, were their CIA operatives that refused to comply with orders? Take the various police brutality cases, what's lost in the echochamber about it all is that these guys volunteer to be police, nobody is forced to, some of them want to carry guns, that really changes the situation a bit when an unarmed p…

There were CIA officers that disagreed, protested, and withdrew from the situations. It's mentioned in the report.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saving grace is that we have a country that was able to admit that it did this. For me, that's hope that we're still in a position to learn from our wrongs, and that the checks-and-balances are still somewhat in-tact.

There is no "saving grace". Saying sorry afterwards doesn't do anything for those wronged. Admission doesn't take away pain, humiliation and fear.

As you can see in the examples of China and Japan [0], a national apology can help ease tensions between peoples and countries and not apologizing can exacerbate already strained relations.

Admitting wrong doing and offering solutions to prevent this from ever happening again are the first steps towards rebuilding what is undoubtedly going to be a much damaged world wide reputation.

Even releasing this report was a step forward.

[0] - http://www.tealeafnation.com/2012/12/has-japan-ever-apologiz...

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he stopped it.

Yeah, it's much easier just to assassinate anyone you want from the other side of the planet with a remote bomb. Or send in a team of assassins when you want to be extra sure that nobody can survive to a right to trial.

I completely agree.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#287
post #86

You'll get more accurate information through tricks and false friendships than torture. There is no justification for torture. None. It's not even a good tool regardless of the morality.

>There is no justification for torture. None. - revenge - increasing the torturer's loyalty for the organization (how many torturers are whistleblowers?) - showing your superiors how far you are willing to go in pursuit of information - terrorizing the enemies you haven't captured yet - strengthening the connections with subordinate countries (Romania hosted secret torture prisons and bribes where given to officials.…

None of those are justifications.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Why did you post those messages? Just because they were supposed to be funny? (I wasn't expecting those messages from you?) (FWIW: You are not the first one I ask about this.)

You're probably too morally outraged by all this to appreciate the humor in the phrasing of that sentence.

I'm not morally outraged at all, - I've told people to go and think twice what they would do if terrorists blew up their kids in a schoolbus. Same goes for outrage about "terrorists": What would I have done if my country was invaded? Hopefully hid in the mountains trying to snipe as many of the invaders as possible, just like my granddad did when the Germans came.

Why? Because people are so quick to judge without even trying once to see why the others are doing what they do.

I just think it is a bad idea to poke fun at it. There are times for funny remarks on serious stuff. I think you'll find that this is not it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#289

Dianne Feinstein deserves enormous credit. Fox News and Republicans are bashing her and by extension her party as traitorous as we speak. The argument that this report should be kept in secret because it endangers Americans' lives is abominable. As an American living abroad, I'm happy to see this released. Still, I wonder about some of the side-effects of this. Instead of arresting and interrogating terrorists we kil…

Look into her history. Before she was against it, she was for it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#290
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the most effective? Anyway, that's really counter-intuitive. I mean, I guess I could deal with pain, but losing body parts, skin or eyes? I would talk pretty fast.

Torture has been shown to be a reasonably good (though not always effective) means of getting people to tell torturers things that they think the torturers want to hear -- whatever the tortured person thinks is most likely to lead to the present cessation of the torture. Its also been shown to be a fairly poor technique, compared to other alternatives, to get accurate, actionable information. As the Senate report its…

The White House is apparently not taking a side in the debate over whether it works or not.

Which frankly makes me think they believe it does. The easy political win is to say it doesn't, and they aren't taking it.

https://twitter.com/peterbakernyt/status/542382617711370240

"Obama official: White House won’t take sides between CIA, which says interrogations worked, and Senate, which says they didn’t."

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