Immigration is about talent, not costs • Hacker News Board

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#501

Post by benfrederickson » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:21 AM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #443

mabbo wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to Toronto. Amazon is here, and growing. Lots of other start ups and mid-sized companies. Canada is way less insane about visa hoops to jump through. We're pretty friendly, and the crime rate is low (our new Mayor doesn't do crack or hang out with gangsters). Most importantly, we're a country and city that likes immigration of smart people who want to earn high salaries, and pay our slightly-higher-than-America…

In Canada currently. The salaries just suck compared to states. Yes the visa hoops are less but living expenses in cities like Vancouver will suck everything out of your pocket.

Software developer salaries are usually about 30% higher in the Bay area than they are in Vancouver.

Renting an apartment will cost you at least twice as much in San Francisco though - so most people are still financially better off with the smaller salary in Vancouver. There are non-financial reasons to move to the Bay Area (more interesting work being the big one), but don't expect your salary to go farther

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#502

Post by Papirola » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

harryh wrote: post #146

rayiner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has a fixed capacity to absorb immigrants while integrating them into our culture. In many places in the country, immigration is already too much, resulting in insular immigrant communities and tensions between immigrants and everyone else. Those are bad things. The unstated assumption underlying the assertion that "the U.S. has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration" is that culture, and institutions a…

> In many places in the country, immigration is already too much This makes me wonder if there is anything we could do to better spread out immigrants to improve the pace of assimilation and hence increase our total capacity to accept immigrants without negative cultural impact. No idea how this might be accomplished but it's got me thinking.

underpopulated Australian territories offer potential immigrants benefits and sponsored accommodation.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#503

Post by IndianAstronaut » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:23 AM UTC

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

This comment is guilty of the lump of labor fallacy. There is not a fixed quantity of jobs. The job market is dynamic and can generate jobs. One person getting a job does not mean another losing one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#504

Post by IndianAstronaut » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:27 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221

halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

>You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. No, the system just needs to be reformed. And I've seen the right reform proposal often enough to be circulating it myself: * The government can give out N visas in an auction. Firms bid via legally-binding salary offers. The N highest salaries bid…

>Of course, it's worth noting that some degree of so-called "nativism" is just part of the social contract. It's the price we pay for having a society that enforces cooperative coordination among citizens instead of letting everything be run by uncoordinated, law-of-the-jungle free-for-alls.

You realize that skilled immigrants are going to be the most likely to assimilate into American culture. They will not form ghettos or enclaves(unless there is of course white flight).

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#505

Post by valar_m » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #480

valar_m wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be. Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm 's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from: this offensively racist image you've got in your head All the way back to: Now I don't think this is you, but that…

What? I think you have me confused with someone else.

You're right. Apologies.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#506

Post by IndianAstronaut » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

anjc wrote: post #432

jlebar wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. I think there's little question that increasing the supply of engineers reduces their price -- our salaries. We can argue about whether it's a small or a large effect, and whether it goes away in the long run due to macroeconomic effects, but it's certainly there. So you're arguing against a straw man here. But more to the po…

> But more to the point, it's short-sighted and selfish to judge policy decisions solely based on their effects on your salary. Especially since those of us in tech are, by and large, ridiculously well-compensated. Maybe it's selfish for you, but what about the ~50% of STEM grads who can't find a job in their industry? And wages are stagnant for STEM workers, and lowering for CS workers. Hundreds of thousands have be…

>Hundreds of thousands have been laid off in the last 5 years, particularly faced with globalisation and outsourcing.

You could also make the argument that allowing women into the industry hurts the wages of male programmers.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#507

Post by IndianAstronaut » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:38 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #245

bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

A rather obvious premise is that there is some limit of immigration that is in the best interest of current US citizens . Average human brains are not a scarce resource as seen by all practical evidence - globally, they're being manufactured at near-record numbers, they're a sustainable resource that we can make more in the future, they're not fully used (9 million of them unemployed) and we're okay with deliberately…

While there is an income discrepancy, western countries and companies are hungry for developing markets.

You can't have entry into those markets while putting up barriers of your own. Go to any street corner in India or Mexico and you will see US and other western brands everywhere.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#508

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:41 AM UTC

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #507

PeterisP wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rather obvious premise is that there is some limit of immigration that is in the best interest of current US citizens . Average human brains are not a scarce resource as seen by all practical evidence - globally, they're being manufactured at near-record numbers, they're a sustainable resource that we can make more in the future, they're not fully used (9 million of them unemployed) and we're okay with deliberately…

While there is an income discrepancy, western countries and companies are hungry for developing markets. You can't have entry into those markets while putting up barriers of your own. Go to any street corner in India or Mexico and you will see US and other western brands everywhere.

Trade protectionism is a completely different issue from immigration and I don't see how it's relevant here.

That being said, you definitely can have entry into those markets while putting up barriers of your own, there are many historical examples when this was successfully done, e.g. 19th century was probably a peak of such practices. The only question is if you should, and if it's worthwhile right now - you can go to any place in USA and you'll see lots of things that are manufactured in Mexico.

And the relationship is exactly the opposite of what is implied by your comment - a large wage disparity means that the developing markets aren't as "useful" as is their cheap labor; if wages would become more equal, then this change would generally reduce the outsourcing of labor to the third world and increase the export of goods made in USA to India or Mexico.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#509

Post by IndianAstronaut » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:41 AM UTC

bquinlan wrote: post #195

A lot of the comments assume that there are only two choices: hire a local American worker or hire an immigrant. But, as the article shows, there is a third choice: hire outside of the US. Giving this third choice, I don't think that restricting H1B visas in some fashion (either through cost or availability) will necessarily have the effect of increasing domestic wages. It may have the opposite effect and drive compa…

I suspect countries like Canada will absolutely thrive because of their more open immigration policies. Also immigrants create jobs.

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21576101-start-ups-fo...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#510

Post by bduerst » Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 1:44 AM UTC

LordHumungous wrote: post #386

bduerst wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is patently false, and a common misunderstanding of immigrantion laws by U.S. citizens. >Requirement 4 - You must be paid at least the actual or prevailing wage for your occupation, whichever is higher. http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupatio...

The government defined "prevailing wage" for a level 1 software developer in San Francisco is $74,000. Does that sound like a market rate to you? http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884... Edit: For a "web developer" the starting number is $52,000. In San Francisco. http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...

Yes it does.

Level 1 is mean salary for entry level, and it's for the peninsula, not just SFC.