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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#321

Post by mabbo »

halflings wrote: post #192
manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Come to Toronto. Amazon is here, and growing. Lots of other start ups and mid-sized companies. Canada is way less insane about visa hoops to jump through. We're pretty friendly, and the crime rate is low (our new Mayor doesn't do crack or hang out with gangsters).

Most importantly, we're a country and city that likes immigration of smart people who want to earn high salaries, and pay our slightly-higher-than-America taxes.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#322

Post by mahyarm »

Spooky23 wrote: post #132
hcho wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My grandparents were all immigrants who didn't need to jump through hoops to come in. IMO, this should still be possible. I think we should have a open lottery that meets 95% of immigration demand, and have some sort of competitive/fast-track process for skilled workers that would weed out the bodyshops. Doesn't US have a green card lottery?

Yes, but the quotas are too low. We literally have 5 million Mexicans living in the US as second class people without access to worker protections and other institutional things. It's a situation that shouldn't exist. My grandparents came here in the 1930's and 1940's. In those days, entry was pretty trivial. No reason why it shouldn't be that way again.

The sad reason why is the welfare state. It didn't exist back then so it didn't cost that much to accept immigrants.

Low skill immigrants cost a lot unless you do the second class mexican thing unfortunately, then they're cheap!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#323

Post by vikas5678 »

manticore_alpha wrote: post #86

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

Communities tend to gravitate toward each other. Your attitude towards these neighborhoods is the same as the attitude expressed toward the european immigrants in the early 1900s.

Does the H1B system need to be reformed? Yes I completely agree. But your reaction is xenophobic. America is a country of immigrants, get over it maybe?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#324

Post by dragonwriter »

dude3 wrote: post #136
dude3 wrote: post #8

A blanket statement like that simply isn't true. I can look in several tech offices and draw conclusions. Are there exceptions, sure. Therefore, H1B should be reserved for the talent you speak of. Why are we bringing QA engineers on H1B? We can train a large portion of these jobs here through programs like Hack Reactor. But we aren't, we are looking for simple fixes.

Last month I was ridding in an Uber and the driver told me he was a Math Teacher. He said that all his students wanted to do was code all day long. He asked me if I wanted to come into class and just tell the kids about my job etc., they would "love that". I was thinking to myself. Here is a math teacher in the middle of Silicon Valley asking me (no one special by any means) to come in and talk to the kids. Why don't…

> Given the dire problem that they claim there is, they should be out there getting kids interested in these jobs.

They are. Not directly, in person, perhaps, but that's why they many tech companies (and the capital funds that back them) are back efforts like Code for America. Increasing the supply of tech labor to drive down costs and increase profits isn't just something driving their position on H-1B levels.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#325

Post by jtbigwoo »

refurb wrote: post #260
LordHumungous wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

You linked to an article that references a study. Care to share the original data? The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can't legally pay below that.

>> The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can legally pay below that.

Companies play games with the experience levels and titles to force wages lower. An "architect" or "developer" gets replaced with an "analyst" or "engineer" making 2/3rds as much.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#326

Post by sliverstorm »

danudey wrote: post #317
sliverstorm wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all? Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs". The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, an…

Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in complete agreement that this phenomenon is very unlikely to happen with H1B workers, and I am completely familiar with the fact that many immigrants are well-educated, speak excellent English, and fully integrate into American society.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#327

Post by bduerst »

ryandrake wrote: post #320
exelius wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay (and your ideas are interesting) There actually is a talent shortage in the Bay Area. If there was no talent shortage, prices for local labor would be lower. If there wasn't a talent shortage, it wouldn't be possible for me to hire a developer from India, pay to fly him out here, put him up in a hotel in Mountain View for 6 months - all for…

You say there is a shortage of tech workers because nobody local is willing to work for less than $100k a year. I say there is a shortage of tech jobs because nobody is willing to employ me for $400k a year. Who's right?

It's all hyperbolic rhetoric until you look at the average wage for citizens in the same area.

Going by the same example and assuming normalized distribution, do you think the average salary is closer to $380k/yr or $120k/yr?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#328

Post by davidw »

fargolime wrote: post #113
bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

Increasing the size of the economy isn't the best choice, though. We have too many people in the US as it is. More people, more money, more stuff isn't always better. (Using a throwaway since it seems most people think more people and skyscrapers and traffic and higher taxes to compensate for the dwindling resources is wonderful.) No, we don't have unlimited room, unless you're planning to not feed or provide water t…

> We have too many people in the US as it is.

Do you know how many children are born every day in the US?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#329

Post by cm2012 »

Squarel wrote: post #297
300bps wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First you said: it is not that they are looking for "cheap labour" Then you said: The company is based in Seattle and they are facing increasing competition from Microsoft and Amazon mostly who are sucking up all of the talent in the area, whilst other smaller startups and companies struggle to hire people because the bigger companies are offering more money. Your second statement contradicts your first statement. Wh…

Only if you define the market rate as "That paid by those with the deepest pockets", in which case, you may find the price of a gallon of milk to be somewhat different than what you expect.

The price of milk is that paid by those with the deepest pockets. It's just that the supply of milk is plentiful.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#330

Post by dragonwriter »

refurb wrote: post #260
LordHumungous wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't change the fact that H1B workers are paid less than American workers for comparable positions. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h...

You linked to an article that references a study. Care to share the original data? The Department of Labor has wage floors for H1-Bs (prevailing wage). Company's can't legally pay below that.

Increasing the quantity supplied at the "prevailing wage" by way of H-1B depresses the prevailing wage from rising to what it would be in the absence of the H-1B for the positions for which H-1B has increased the supply (and has knock-on effects for other areas of work, because the Americans that don't get employed in the positions covered by H-1Bs then are competing in fields they otherwise wouldn't be, increasing the quantity supplied at any given price point in those fields.)

Its not only basic economics, but if it didn't work that way, there'd be no benefit to employers from the H-1B existing to justify the compliance costs.

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