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Immigration is about talent, not costs

aerofs.com

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

> The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. Does that mean being a citizen entitles one to a job regardless of qualification? Also, does that mean 100% of the US should be employed before bringing in foreign workers? I think such generalizations ar…

Note that there's no value judgment being made here. Nor am I claiming that H1s are low paid. You're still arguing against the same strawman.

To reword: if an H1 gets a job, a qualified citizen is not getting that job. Except in very exceptional circumstances, this hurts said citizen, and by extension the labor pool of people who could be substituted in for said citizen.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#312
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I am sitting, it looks like more than just cost, it's about control. If a smart mouth prima donna like myself lost his job, it would suck, yes, but if I were an H1-B I could be deported . If I were in that position I would think twice about telling my boss something he didn't want to hear. But it's worse than that. An Indian coworker once shared an unsubstantiated story about how an unscrupulous recruiter…

I am surprised each time I see this kind of casual bigotry on HN. Seriously, "school in India called, Institute of Suspiciously Obscure Technologies"? I don't think there's any other way of reading your comment other than "most Indians lie on resumes and in interviews." It's understandable seeing this kind of stuff on reddit from 13 year-olds. But I don't understand what vantage makes you make such sweeping generaliz…

Not to mention the fact that a sizeable number of Indians on H1Bs actually went to great grad schools... Not everyone from India came here to work for a bodyshop.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#313
The issues tech companies have with immigration are about costs. The argument that is about "talent" that the AeroFS blog post makes is not about talent distinct from cost, its about AeroFS's preference to not bear the cost (including time, financial cost, and risk) of developing talent to a particular experience level and their preference to have that done for them, and the fact that they found someone for whom that was done in a way they liked and that -- except inconveniently situated with regard to immigration.

If we were honest that the issues in immigration (on both sides) are about costs (except for those that are about outright racism), then we could address them more effectively.

There is a fairly direct value to immigrants and to certain others (e.g., in the case of those with pre-arranged employment, as would have been the case for the worker AeroFS write about, to their employers) of admitting specific immigrants. There are also social costs and benefits of admitting immigrants. (This also applies to non-immigrant visas, includingthe H-1B, which are, in a sense, peripheral to the issue of immigration, though its mostly what the tech industry is focussing on when discussing "immigration", which is one of many disconnects between the tech industry and the wider society.)

The basic structure of our immigration system -- in terms of the various immigration major categories and the decisions about which of them are unlimited and which are limited by quotas -- represents a judgement about the balancing of the social costs and benefits. Without challenging that basic judgement, there are sensible reforms that could be made which make the system better for everyone. The simplest that I see is to eliminate all the hard quotas in the family-based immigrant visa categories, and simply decide, in each category, on a fee to be assessed for supernumerary (above the now-soft quota) immigrants. (Generally, this should follow the structure of the family preference categories, with the more distant relation categories having higher fees.)

Instead of changing the structure of employer-sponsored immigrant visa categories, and to address some of the non-immigrant economic visa categories (particularly H-1B), what I'd strongly suggest is creating a separate no-quota (that is, all fee-based) individual immigrant visa category for candidates who are neither barred from immigrating to the US nor qualified in any of the existing family preference categories, with the highest fees, and allow economic entrants for work that is neither seasonal nor short-term to use that (and eliminate the non-treaty based non-immigrant visa classifications that this provision replaces, particularly the H-1B), while keeping the existing quota-restricted employer-sponsored immigrant visa categories.

If a company wants to give an employee an payment (up-front or in arrears) to cover the fee as a supernumerary immigrant (in either a family preference class or the new open class), they could through a relationship governed under contract law, but they'd get no special position with respect to the employee under immigration law.

This would address any "talent" issue that isn't about cost that the tech industry has with H-1B limits (or that industry in general has with the limits in employer-sponsored immigrant visa categories), address those issues that are about costs by providing a direct mechanism by which the social cost of the cost savings to industry are internalized in the transaction, address the problems with hard quotas that cause real problems in the family preference categories which are both drivers of illegal immigration and undermine the entire purpose of family-centered immigration policy, and provide funds to address the social costs associated with the overall level of immigration.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#314
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

> every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting That's assuming the job market is entirely inelastic, which seems unlikely. By that same logic, every foreigner not allowed to start a company in the US is N jobs citizens aren't getting.

Okay, fine. I may have sounded as if I was trying to be precise, when in fact I'm just trying to point in the right direction.

Let's try "every H1 is a positive percentage of a job a citizen isn't getting". This doesn't require that the job market be entirely inelastic; just that the response not go in the opposite of the expected direction. The same conclusion results; said H1 hurts citizens who are also qualified for said job.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely, positively hurts local labor - naturalized citizens - etc. Without a doubt. I disagree with this statement. I am on an H1 and know several other people who are on H1s and can testify that this is a generalization. There are many ways to end up on an H1, overseas body shops is one avenue and American grad schools are another. Most H1s I know, myself included, graduated from good schools, have worked har…

I don't think the point you take issue with is really debatable. The only way it could not be true if there is actually no one in the local labor market who can do the job, and that's a very difficult argument to make. Outside of that, every H1 is a job a citizen isn't getting. You didn't touch on this at all, so I'm not really sure what your point is. I think you're debating a strawman.

By this logic, we should not allow people to have more than two children, or else the surplus children will grow up and take the jobs. Because there are only a fixed number of jobs to go around, right? I read last week that the bureau of labor statistics determined the number: 309,219,419.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#316
post #136
post #8

A blanket statement like that simply isn't true. I can look in several tech offices and draw conclusions. Are there exceptions, sure. Therefore, H1B should be reserved for the talent you speak of. Why are we bringing QA engineers on H1B? We can train a large portion of these jobs here through programs like Hack Reactor. But we aren't, we are looking for simple fixes.

Last month I was ridding in an Uber and the driver told me he was a Math Teacher. He said that all his students wanted to do was code all day long. He asked me if I wanted to come into class and just tell the kids about my job etc., they would "love that". I was thinking to myself. Here is a math teacher in the middle of Silicon Valley asking me (no one special by any means) to come in and talk to the kids. Why don't…

There's too many artificial barriers in the market to hiring those kids. They're not ALL going to graduate from Stanford, for example.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst. Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate. You are already most of the way…

How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all?

Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs".

The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english.

Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc.

You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purely on the informative side: why are these people called "interns" when it looks more like they're straight-up "contractors" or "employees"? Is this just a convenient fiction?

Most of them are worthless; of any given intern class at a first tier technology company (e.g., Apple), only ~1-5% will actually be offered a full time job. Those 1% are worth every penny, but you simply don't know who they are until you give the entire intern class the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities.

Do you have some sort of source for that figure? Every company I've worked at, including both Google and obscure outfits you've never heard of, has made an offer to far more than 1-5% of its interns. This random Quora answer says 70% at Google get offers, which seems high to me, but less off than 5%.

http://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Google-Interns-get-f...

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#319

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

If we're being honest, then we need to start slapping the wrists of the employers.

Technically speaking, to be approved on an LCA (H1B) application, the prevailing wage has to be at or above the mean payable wage for the citizens in the same SOC job classification for the region. Long story short, if there is any exploitation or hurting the local labor, it's because the employers are getting away with illegally hiring talented labor for the wrong, often underpaid positions.

More resources are needed to enforce the restrictions against immigration exploitation on employers, not the immigrants.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#320

Look HNers, let's be honest with each other. There's a lot of H1B's on here. You have friends overseas who you want to see succeed in the Bay Area. In my experience at many tech companies in the Bay Area, H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only - to get skilled engineering/STEM labor -- and to exploit connections (primarily Indian/Pakistani) among these workers to continue to get cheap labor. It absolutel…

> There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area, provided you can pay (and your ideas are interesting) There actually is a talent shortage in the Bay Area. If there was no talent shortage, prices for local labor would be lower. If there wasn't a talent shortage, it wouldn't be possible for me to hire a developer from India, pay to fly him out here, put him up in a hotel in Mountain View for 6 months - all for…

You say there is a shortage of tech workers because nobody local is willing to work for less than $100k a year.

I say there is a shortage of tech jobs because nobody is willing to employ me for $400k a year.

Who's right?

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