Tim Cook Speaks Up • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#391

Post by rokhayakebe » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:00 PM UTC

blktiger wrote: post #298

dodyg wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tim Cook is a Christian. This is a message to the Church.

I have a hard time thinking of anyone as Christian if they ignore the basic tenants of what the Bible says. Homosexuality is very clearly spelled out as wrong. So are plenty of other things of course and the Bible doesn't specify homosexual behavior as any more or less wrong than any other sinful act. Christians shouldn't be treating homosexuals any different than anyone else, but that includes letting people know th…

"I have hard time thinking of anyone as an IOS engineer if they ignore the basics tenants of what Apple documentation states. XYZ is very clearly spelled out as unsafe."

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#392

Post by mattzito » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

lmedinas wrote: post #291

mattzito wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a difference without a distinction - if he believes that only marriage between a man and a woman should be valid or recognized in California, then by extension he believes that a marriage between two men, or two women, should not be valid in california. Which is advocating for not providing that right to same-sex indviduals. Which is anti-gay. If the ballot measure said, "Only votes cast by a white pe…

Dude, he expressed his opinion about the gay marriage like Tim Cook did about his beliefs in God and society. What's the difference ? It's just opinions! And people have to respect both! Also anti means that you are against something, and Brendan never expressed that he was against gays or even hated gays. He was just against gay marriage. Suddenly being "gay" is cool and being "hetero" is not cool ?

Tim Cook expressing his beliefs does not deprive me of access to my rights as an individual. People are certainly free to not believe in gay marriage, but when they start donating money to groups dedicated to preventing gay people from getting married, that crosses a line.

Put another way - Tim Cook believes in God, which is fine, that's his prerogative. However, if he started donating money to anti-atheist groups, now he's actively working to disrespect the opinions of those who are atheists.

Note that this passage:

> Brendan never expressed that he was against gays or even hated gays. He was just against gay marriage.

Is basically identical to what many many people said about miscegenation/mixed-race marriage:

> (Brendan/whoever) never expressed that he/they were against blacks or even hated blacks. He was just against mixed-race marriages.

But in retrospect, it's really hard to look at that statement and not see it as an expression of bigotry. If you're "okay with gays" and "not okay with gay marriage", it really means that you're not okay with gays.

> Suddenly being "gay" is cool and being "hetero" is not cool ?

Seems weird to say that being gay is cool when we're arguing about people donating money to stop gay people from having the same rights as hetero people.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#393

Post by robomartin » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:04 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #235

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I was reasonably smart, well-spoken, curious, and so on, and I wanted to do something important with my life. Some nagging part of me suspected I was gay from very early on, but I resisted it intensely. I wasn't really afraid of being mistreated, although I proba…

I applaud this. I am not gay. Conventional family, kids, etc. Oh, yes, I am also an atheist which, today, in the US, is worst than being gay in some circles.

As I am sure a lot of you know, the reality show Survivor features a male homosexual couple this year. Bravo! We watch the show with our kids every week. Yes, they ask questions. The little ones cover their eyes when anybody kisses on TV anyway. Seeing two men kiss on the lips and show affection is, well, weird to them. You just don't see that on mainstream TV these days. We simply tell them that what they are seeing is perfectly normal and that these are two people who love each other just as much as mom and dad do. They say "ok" and still go "ewwwww!" When anyone kisses on the show.

The part of Tim Cook's statement that is disappointing to me is where he says "I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.". Of course, as an atheist I tend to be particularly sensitive to such statements. If we leave that aside, it is simply a fact that god and religion --world wide-- have been brutal to the gay community. Historically this has ranged from denouncement all the way up to torture and murder. And that stands on it's own, it's a historical fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the messenger being an atheist.

Anyhow, I am glad he decided to come out as the role model he surely is. Society has far to go. This helps. Every little step helps.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#394

Post by dreamweapon » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:05 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #380

thenmar wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support w…

Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, be…

That's an incredibly muddle-headed sequence of arguments you've just made, for sure. But no, we're not going to hate you for it.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#395

Post by DanBC » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

dreamweapon wrote: post #394

angersock wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, be…

That's an incredibly muddle-headed sequence of arguments you've just made, for sure. But no, we're not going to hate you for it.

Your inability to respond to any of the points has been noted.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#396

Post by notjackma » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:09 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #380

thenmar wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support w…

Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, be…

> Tim Cook continued contracts with Foxconn with the sole goal of minimizing production costs by using underpaid overworked labor

I'm going to upvote you for this.

Just because Tim Cook is gay doesn't make him Mother Teresa. He seems quite happy in promoting brutal Victorian style work-houses because it's "over there". Out of sight, out of mind. He's quite the hypocrite.

He's also no better or worse then the operations guy at Dell, Samsung, Lenovo, etc. who are all churning out products from the same manufacturers and assembly lines in China and South-East Asia. I don't know why people keep promoting the myth that he is some amazing operations guy when everything is outsourced anyway, and recent products have suffered from manufacturing delays and raw material supply issues.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#397

Post by Aloha » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:11 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #386

dwild wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion but it's wrong to hurt other people based on an opinion (in this case he hurt them by limiting their right).

You do realize that he didn't actually limit their rights, correct? He cast a dollar vote in support of a proposition, same way any of us could give campaign donations to a candidate we liked. He participated in the political framework in a widely-accepted way , and the system failed to effect the outcome he seems to have voted for: democracy prevailed, the system worked, nobody was harmed. You might as well round up…

Yes.

The issue I have with the whole Brendan Eich situation was he was professing thru his right to free speech a profoundly held religious belief, I disagree with his interpretation of scripture, and conceptually that scripture should determine who can get married - but as gay male (who came out at 15, in 1998) I'd fight to the death for his rights to speak his mind.

I have an extreme distaste of Social Justice Warriors - there are people whom I firmly believe would never stand up to try to stop a gay bashing, but are more than content to stir up a huge ruckus online. Brendan Eich did the internet community a great service in his time - he didnt deserve to be drummed out for his beliefs, a thoughtcrime is not yet a crime, and I'd rather see him judged for his actions in his management roles not for just what he thinks.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#398

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:12 PM UTC

notjackma wrote: post #390

angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

52% of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8 (to ban same-sex marriage) so you could argue Brendan Eich holds a rather popular opinion.

> 52% of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8 (to ban same-sex marriage)

No, they didn't. 52% of those who voted on Prop 8 (about 79% of the ~17M eligible and registered to vote, which were themselves only about 45% of Californians) voted for Prop 8 -- so about 19% of Californians voted for it.

> so you could argue Brendan Eich holds a rather popular opinion.

Well, no, you couldn't make a good argument that he holds a rather popular opinion based on the results of an election 6 years ago. You could perhaps argue that he holds a view that was popular at the time of the election based on those results. After all, opinions change. [1]

[1] see, e.g., http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_show.asp?i=1012

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#399

Post by Aloha » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:12 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #147

driverdan wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it was widely assumed that he was gay By who, Apple fanboys? Your average person probably doesn't even know who is Apple's current CEO let alone that he's gay.

Tech media mainly.

Not just tech media - anyone who follows GLBT politics and rights assumed it too.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#400

Post by aaronbrethorst » Thu, Oct 30, 2014, 4:13 PM UTC

notjackma wrote: post #390

angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

52% of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8 (to ban same-sex marriage) so you could argue Brendan Eich holds a rather popular opinion.

    With recent big increases in support for
    legalization of same-sex marriage, the
    California public is now 61% in favor,
    31% opposed according to a February 2013
    Field Poll,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_California...