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Tim Cook Speaks Up

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Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#371

Post by phtrivier »

linguafranca wrote: post #328

This is the culture I was brought up in. This kind of article is the reason I grew up believing there was nothing wrong with homosexuality. Since every single other comment here is inevitably going to be some kind of applause and praise, let me briefly offer the perspective of some who have been silenced on HN and in the general tech world. We know that homosexuality is a destructive force in society. While we love T…

Spoler alert : most people's downvotes will come from this single sentence :

> "We know that homosexuality is a destructive force in > society."

Followed by an appeal to proof, then, followed by a long and aimless debates ("define 'We'", "define 'destructive'", "define 'society'", show some proofs, "#define DEBUG", etc...)

Followed by people giving up, making a sandwich, and going on with their mortal lives.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#372

Post by thenmar »

angersock wrote: post #363
dwild wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I didn't like the news. Tim Cook is gay, so what? I though 5 seconds about it and then I realized how actually we still need this... we still need to remind people that there's nothing wrong with being gay. That's sad that we are still at this point.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away.

Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support was non-criminal, but he was fundamentally supporting something wrong, both morally and legally.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#373

Post by jonstewart »

linguafranca wrote: post #328

This is the culture I was brought up in. This kind of article is the reason I grew up believing there was nothing wrong with homosexuality. Since every single other comment here is inevitably going to be some kind of applause and praise, let me briefly offer the perspective of some who have been silenced on HN and in the general tech world. We know that homosexuality is a destructive force in society. While we love T…

Who's this "we" and what's this known destructive force you speak of, kemosabe? It is one thing to have a divergent opinion and to express it reasonably (and kudos for not being inflammatory), but it is another entirely to make assertions about what's "known", without conceding the possibility of doubt, when one is confronted with reasonable people having opposite opinions.

If you changed "know" above to "believe", then I think that would raise the level of discourse and be more respectful.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#374

Post by lotharbot »

mkr-hn wrote: post #368
lotharbot wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are those who are trying to require religious organizations to perform same-sex weddings. I think that qualifies as "pushing"...

So many have done it willingly, in advance of any pressure, that religion isn't a credible defense. edit: I just realized I got dragged way off topic by a troll. Whoops.

there's a great deal of diversity in religion.

The fact that some religious groups have taken a particular stand doesn't make it "not pushy" to force other groups to follow.

EDIT: for example, a lot of religions don't have a problem with pork, but some do. It would be pushy to require a kosher or halal deli to serve pork. Likewise, there are some who want to require, say, Southern Baptist churches to perform same-sex weddings; that's pushy.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#375

Post by smtddr »

downandout wrote: post #67
broodbucket wrote: post #4

Being in such a progressive community (i.e. young nerdy people), it's easy to forget that this is an enormous deal for some people. A friend of mine recently came out as transgender and the general response was "oh, cool, good for you". It's hard to fathom what it's like for people who aren't in such a supportive environment. There are undoubtedly many people who will no longer purchase Apple products because of this…

>There are undoubtedly many people who will no longer purchase Apple products because of this I disagree. First, I think it was widely assumed that he was gay, and if it wasn't, he was accidentally outed during a live TV broadcast a few months ago by a CNBC reporter [1]. Second, the people that think this way probably already avoid Apple products, as both Tim Cook and Apple have been vocal on gay rights for quite som…

I had no idea whatsoever. I've never seen this clip before and that was totally an accidental outed.

I actually can think of one co-worker who might have some difficulty with this news today...

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#376

Post by JoeAltmaier »

facepalm wrote: post #369
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that is government meddling in someone else's affairs in the most egregious way possible. Its not as far as taking kids from single parents etc. because they don't fit someone's model of a perfect family, but nearly there. My cousin has 4 kids, and is married to the love of her life Lisa. Their kids are certifiably the kindest, most considerate kids I know. There's been no psychological damage, at least not at th…

Sure, that is what I said in another comment: if you argue homosexual couples are somehow unfit to raise children, you would also have to question other people's fitness. But I think you are wrong about adoption. I think it's one of the main concerns opponents of gay marriage have. What other rights would people be concerned about? The other one I can think of is the right to bring your spouse into your country. Are…

Adoption rules are covered under different laws. Why not attack those rules, instead of marriage? It seems indirect. As you suggest, why not arrest, or execute, or lobotomize as well? Unmarried people can adopt - so what's the connection then?

I think, because the argument is thrown up semi-randomly - See! They might adopt! That would be awful! Just another red herring, saying anything at all that might convince a voter to strike down the right to marry.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#377

Post by mcv »

dragonwriter wrote: post #229
super_mario wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, isn't that what every believer does, picks out the parts they like and ignore the ones they don't, showing once more they are their own moral guide and they know better than their god what is good and what is not. I wouldn't go as far as call it sophisticated. Sophisticated would be seeing the bronze age ramblings for bullshit that it is and devoting your life to learning what we actually do know of the univers…

> Sure, isn't that what every believer does, picks out the parts they like and ignore the ones they don't, showing once more they are their own moral guide and they know better than their god what is good and what is not. That doesn't show that. Picking out the parts of what other people say about God that resonate with them and ignoring the parts that do not isn't saying that they know more than God about what is go…

Exactly. Keep in mind that the people insisting that homosexuality is such a terrible sin are putting quite a bit of their own spin on the bible. If you were to determine the contents on the bible based on what a certain brand of American Christian talks about, you'd think it all revolves around Genesis 1 and some bits of Leviticus. The entire New Testament is nowhere in sight.

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#378

Post by Tloewald »

angersock wrote: post #363
dwild wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I didn't like the news. Tim Cook is gay, so what? I though 5 seconds about it and then I realized how actually we still need this... we still need to remind people that there's nothing wrong with being gay. That's sad that we are still at this point.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Brendan Eich is entitled to his opinion, and a large not for profit is entitled not to want someone with that opinion as a figurehead.

As for who has done more for what — web browsers were going to have a scripting language. Is Javascript so astoundingly good that we can only assume any alternative would have been worse?

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#379

Post by dwild »

angersock wrote: post #363
dwild wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I didn't like the news. Tim Cook is gay, so what? I though 5 seconds about it and then I realized how actually we still need this... we still need to remind people that there's nothing wrong with being gay. That's sad that we are still at this point.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Sure there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion but it's wrong to hurt other people based on an opinion (in this case he hurt them by limiting their right).

Re: Tim Cook Speaks Up

#380

Post by angersock »

thenmar wrote: post #372
angersock wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.

Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support w…

Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions.

And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, because the man himself hasn't said anything on the matter--mostly because of the gay hate brigade rallied against him.

By contrast, Tim Cook continued contracts with Foxconn with the sole goal of minimizing production costs by using underpaid overworked labor--and if you look at Apple close enough, yeah, there's some nastiness there. He's a solid operations guy (clearly!), but has directly supported policies that have harmed both our industry and workers abroad.

I'm likely going to get downvoted into oblivion (again, and in hilarious underscoring of my point).

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