Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 536 posts

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#371

Post by vasilipupkin »

FlyingLawnmower wrote: post #285
vasilipupkin wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there are plenty of scholarhips and need based funds at John Hopkins. So this way a rich student has no problem paying either through loans or cash, but a poor student will be subsidized to a large extent. Also, if you want to major in something that is not in high demand then great, do it but why should everyone else subsidize your choices?

Just because a middle class student can pay for university through loans doesn't mean they should have to. Colleges advertise about their highly generous financial aid policies, but for most of the middle class whose parents earn say 120=150k together, little to no aid is given outside of loans.

well, theoretically, it makes sense for people to pay for their own education with loans that they can pay off, conditional on the sort of salary they expect to receive in the future as a result of their education. I mean if you want to major in quantitative finance and make a million a year, does it make sense for everybody else to fully subsidize your education ? What if you want to major in Japanese History pre 1600 ? does it make sense then?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#372

Post by zwieback »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #338
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Don't they have practical courses? Do experiments? Soviet and post-soviet education systems were modelled after german ones, but lab practice makes around 30%. For more abstract topics, practice/discussion/seminars.

I did have a few "Praktikum" units but they were very crude, basically recreating expected results on very old lab equipment.

In higher level classes I had a lot of really excellent practical projects to work on, some of them directly financed by small and medium companies.

I guess it should be mentioned that most German University degrees take somewhere around 5-6 years so the hands-on work usually comes later.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#373

Post by tormeh »

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Well the Berlin universities sort of have those things as well - federally funded student housing, canteens, coffee shops and university sports. I think the difference is mainly in the amount of money thrown at it. American universities just tend to have a ridiculous amount of money to throw at everything - from research to fitness centers.

In my native Norway the universities have more money than in Germany, but still not the kind that American universities have. The American dominance in research comes from two things: A PhD culture and the best lab equipment on the planet.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#374

Post by tormeh »

saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

That's what high school is for.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#375

Post by iammyIP »

ahomescu1 wrote: post #361
saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

> [...] just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers [...] You're assuming that one can only be a free thinker or a free man after 4 years of university, as opposed to the ignorant slaves that are the rest. What makes you believe this?

"people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it" - You´re assuming an assumption out of the blue.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#376

Post by iammyIP »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #320
acadien wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything said above, but what about the fact that society will always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.? I'm not even sure that this is a counter point to what is mentioned above, just more thinking out loud. Is it possible to have a high functioning/efficient society in which there are no economic pressures to motivate people?

Why can't a plumber be also a free thinker?

I am sure he can be, but why must some free thinkers be plumbers?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#377

Post by seanmcdirmid »

kenko wrote: post #358
superuser2 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>dorms If efficiently managed, dorms shouldn't represent a significant burden on students above the price of living in off-campus housing. >restaurants Generally make a profit. >coffee shops Generally make a profit while employing unskilled students. >fitness clubs Okay, these are probably excessive, but fitness is fairly important. >green spaces everywhere I'd be really surprised if this accounted for an appreciable…

It doesn't matter if restaurants, cafés, etc. generally make a profit; that's not what the university should be concerned with.

They don't run those, they generally contract them out to Sodexo or similar company. The only reason they are there is because students spend money on them. You should have more of a problem with student free spending ways than with the universities just providing for their habits.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#378

Post by Dewie »

rbehrends wrote: post #362
zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

To go into more detail, here's the typical lecture format at a German university (note that this is "typical", not universal, and professors have a lot of leeway in how they can structure their courses). There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses…

> There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45 minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses will generally be conducted by a TA in smaller groups.

That sounds like an average course that I've taken at my university here in Norway.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#379

Post by 2ion »

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

> there's not much general ed to speak of

If by 'general ed' you are referring to optional classes that are not necessarily related to your core subject or electives, I would like to say that you have very much the option (and in most reformed Bachelor-type programs it's a requirement) to take such classes and choose among many types of seminars ranging from communication and negotiation coaching to optional language classes.

Also note that in contrary to (or so I think) most for-profit US universities which impose a rigorous bookkeeping on credits taken vs. tution fees, students at German public universities can -- on their own initiative, by asking the professors or offices directly -- easily listen in to or take exams in random classes, even from other departments. If the professor agrees, they'll get a singed certificate with a grade which they can use for credit in their electives. I on one occasion took a Psychology as well as Economics classes, and had no problems in turning these into useful credits.

> You don't get what you don't pay for

German universities work for people who can act on their own initiative, they enable people to progress. Guidance is optional and provided on request/on intervention. I'm thankful for that by not charging as a for-profit institution, our universities don't need to cater to their clients as (service) staff.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#380

Post by andrewfong »

ahomescu1 wrote: post #361
saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

> [...] just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers [...] You're assuming that one can only be a free thinker or a free man after 4 years of university, as opposed to the ignorant slaves that are the rest. What makes you believe this?

He didn't say that 4 years of university was a prerequisite to being a "free thinker", but I think it's probably useful. You get to live and work with fellow students who hail from sorts of backgrounds and have different goals and aspirations from you. Most universities offer classes in a wide range of subject areas, and many even require you to take classes outside of your specialization. There's a high concentration of intellectuals to interact with. And you get a lot of time to think about life, the universe, and everything.

There are certainly substitutes for all of those things outside university (albeit scattered about), and it's questionable whether a full four years if needed. But, all else equal, I think the liberal arts education is conducive to "free thought", if not necessarily economic earning power.

Post reply on HN