Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#351

Post by revelation » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #338

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Don't they have practical courses? Do experiments? Soviet and post-soviet education systems were modelled after german ones, but lab practice makes around 30%. For more abstract topics, practice/discussion/seminars.

There are usually a variety of modules

- lectures: final exam that accounts for 100% of your grade, and sometimes (possibly obligatory) regular homework

- practical courses / labs: how grades are assigned vary, sometimes this will be a "do a project in a team" kind of assignment, sometimes it's experiments where you are expected to write one or more reports

- seminars: you'll be assigned a topic (usually some recent, narrow scientific result, no wildcard giant topics here) and expected to write a report on it & give a presentation

The exact mixture depends on your course of study.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#352

Post by petercooper » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #105

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language. User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American universities to Europeans. Skype starte…

The English speak English, and I can't think of any serious socially-oriented sites that are popular across the English speaking world that were born in the UK except for last.fm which was mostly a music tracking service than a social area. I'd be interested if anyone can bring any up though, but I'm kinda surprised nothing like a British version of Reddit ever took the Internet by storm.. everyone I know here just uses all the American sites.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#353

Post by bertil » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

I guess your point makes sense for general university. However, there is a way to have fairly cheap education with good feedback, with skill selection. I went through the French equivalent of the Ivy League (Paris Tech): tuition was “free” (hundreds of Euros per year, paid-for for most students with economic difficulty) and tutoring was systematic. However, having consistent classrooms where groups of 15 had the same level helped a lot.

Those schools receive a lot more tax-payer money than university does, but not impossibly more. Saving on that without sacrificing the pedagogy seems doable: teachers often were alumni that could have easily contributed out of duty and prestige (I certainly did: paperwork to get paid was a maze).

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#354

Post by rthomas6 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:21 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #340

rthomas6 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then they wouldn't buy the bigger TV because they'd realize it wouldn't make them happier, and the TV makers would suffer. /s

I love my big TV. Playing games on it on a Saturday evening after my kids have gone to sleep puts an ear-to-ear grin on my face.

Then why not buy an even bigger TV to make you even more happy?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#355

Post by oscargrouch » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:27 PM UTC

brkn wrote: post #239

I started paying around 250 Euro when starting my study at the university (2009). This term I had to pay aroung 290 Euro. The fee for the TU Berlin is composed of: Verwaltungsgebühr (gem. § 2 Abs. 7 BerlHG) (administrative fee) 50,00 € Beitrag zur Studierendenschaft (Contribution to the student body) 8,70 € Beitrag zum Studentenwerk (Contribution to the Student Services) 48,77 € Beitrag zum Semesterticket (Contributi…

Google translator for German looks awesome; its not that good for Portuguese :/

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#356

Post by dirtyaura » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:36 PM UTC

eqdw wrote: post #112

samuli wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC Finland has never had university tuition fees and it is the 3rd most equal country in the world. http://www.goodcountry.org/country/FIN Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. My own experience is that there are people from very varying backgrounds in the Finnish u…

> Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. Thought experiment: American students also get government backed cheap loans. Further, since these government-backed cheap loans are often used to cover cost of living as well as tuition, they are a de-facto allowance from the g…

Monthly allowance (around 400-500EUR in total) and free university education (classes and labs are free, you have to buy or loan the books) are the main characteristics of Finnish university system. Student loans play only a small part. Many people in my student generation didn't even take them, even if they are more or less risk free loans.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#357

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:40 PM UTC

legomylibrum wrote: post #348

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

I'm no fan of how enormous college sports have become, but fwiw they are enormous sources of income and despite the extravagant stadiums and suchlike, they often pay for valuable research, courses, and amenities. What's troubling about them is the exploitation of the student athletes; the ones that make money give a lot back to the university as a whole.

Sources for any of that? While some sports (football, men's basketball) are profit centers that can offset the cost of non-revenue sports, that really only applies to the top-tier programs (NCAA Division 1).

I've never heard of university sports programs being major sources of revenue for research or courses (outside of possibly sports-related studies).

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#358

Post by kenko » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:46 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #336

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

>dorms If efficiently managed, dorms shouldn't represent a significant burden on students above the price of living in off-campus housing. >restaurants Generally make a profit. >coffee shops Generally make a profit while employing unskilled students. >fitness clubs Okay, these are probably excessive, but fitness is fairly important. >green spaces everywhere I'd be really surprised if this accounted for an appreciable…

It doesn't matter if restaurants, cafés, etc. generally make a profit; that's not what the university should be concerned with.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#359

Post by acadien » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:48 PM UTC

JetSpiegel wrote: post #320

acadien wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything said above, but what about the fact that society will always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.? I'm not even sure that this is a counter point to what is mentioned above, just more thinking out loud. Is it possible to have a high functioning/efficient society in which there are no economic pressures to motivate people?

Why can't a plumber be also a free thinker?

Yes that is exactly the point I am trying to raise with my previous question. Is this sustainable? Certainly not in the US where a student must take on massive amounts of debt to complete a degree only to make near minimum wage after graduation.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#360

Post by aioprisan » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 7:49 PM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #347

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Hiring person tutors once in a while in this situation is miles ahead in cost/benefit ratio compared to an american university. And with the Berliner comment, it sounds like you can still get feedback and questions answered.

Hiring a tutor that may or may not be in tune with the specific issue at hand that you need help with and the class/topic context vs going to a TA who is intimately familiar with the course and is likely already leading recitation sessions and exam reviews, and two widely different things.