Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#311

Post by ibebrett » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:37 PM UTC

sean-duffy wrote: post #265

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right; to be clear, Instead of University students could be directed to a trade or profession that would suit them better (than wasting everyone's time in a four-year institution)

I think you've completely missed the point of what university is for. University is to study something you're passionate about at a high level, it isn't neccesstily a gateway to a job. There are plenty of people who study something such as art or history but then never go into careers in any way related to those. Dictating people's university choices is a terrible idea.

Right but a huge amount of students are taking loans (because they cant afford school at the moment) for college so they can pay it back when they have increased job prospects. It doesnt make sense to spend 60K on school if you will never be able to pay it back.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#312

Post by rbehrends » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:40 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #227

jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? Thank you for asking for data to inform our discussion here. Yes. There are a number of scholars of the economics of education who work full-time researching this issue. You are correct that university admission generally takes in young people from more prosperous families all over the world--because young people f…

It is worth emphasizing that it's not just accessibility that Germany is interested in. While access to higher education IS an article of faith for the social democrats, there are additional factors in play here.

First, the German economy is dependent on a skilled labor force. As a result, Germany subsidizes tertiary education across the board, not just college. That's not only to keep college accessible for the poor, but to encourage young people to get a solid, credentialed education.

Second, the usual expectation in Germany is that you'll finish university with a graduate degree. In fact, until recently (per the Bologna Process) there weren't even undergraduate degrees in Germany (as they provided less depth than a graduate degree and less practical experience compared to vocational training). The industry is generally interested in an MS over a BS, and having to pay for your tuition may force students to take a break after their Bachelor's degree to earn some money.

Third, there's the German attitude towards personal debt and loans (which is that they don't particularly like either). I think the German banking system isn't really set up do handle big personal loans outside of mortgages and car loans.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#313

Post by ori_b » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:40 PM UTC

jo_ wrote: post #274

I've been digging through this thread and can't seem to find any information on the impact of 'free tuition' on tuition costs. In the US, we saw an increase in loan availability result in a significant uptick in the price of attendance to universities. If the government is paying the cost of tuition, how is the cost of tuition kept in check? Disclaimer: I love the idea of free public education. I wish it would take h…

> If the government is paying the cost of tuition, how is the cost of tuition kept in check?

The government pays what it wants. If the government refuses to pay, what is the university going to do? It's not like it can compete with free.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#314

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:41 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #218

aidenn0 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US population density: 34/km^2 Germany population density: 226/km^2 The Northeast US has a fairly good railway system despite it having a lot of legacy constraints not around in Germany. Most of the rest of the US is far to sprawling for railways to be effective.

See the average speed of Acela trains (time vs distance) compared with TGV/Thalys/ICE And don't you think Germany has more legacy constraints with a higher density and older tracks?

Acela trains share track with freight, TGV and ICE certainly don't. This includes the requirement for safe collision with a freight train, which adds a lot of weight.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#315

Post by notahacker » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

h43k3r wrote: post #260

thro1237 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only provide anecdotal evidence. I come from a poor family and studied in India in a government university by paying $20/year. The cost of providing that education was estimated at $1000/year and private universities used to charge as much. If the government had not provided that subsidy, I would not have taken a loan to the tune of $1000/year because that would have been too risky. I would have opted for the l…

I agree with you.Today, IITs (best engineering universities in india) for example have fees no more than $1000 per semester. Many of my classmates who are from relatively poor background are able to study without worrying about loans and and many of them are doing very well in their careers.

Poor relative to whom? India's nominal GDP per capita is GDP $1570 per annum.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#316

Post by mathattack » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #302

Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises. I'm guessing most US…

Don't even get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises.

This pisses me off too. It's why I don't give money to my Sports Franchise undergrad.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#317

Post by aidenn0 » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:44 PM UTC

seanflyon wrote: post #240

Roboprog wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they have the problem of vastly differential funding between local schools in 21st century Germany?

In the US some public schools are vastly better than others even when they receive similar funding. Quality of the local schools is a significant factor in home prices.

As an example, I saved about 20% on my house by buying in the zone for a lower-quality school.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#318

Post by krylon » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:45 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #289

Do all professors become employed by the government then?

In Germany (where I live, I am not sure how it works in other countries), that is how it works.

There are some private universities, but not many (and they tend to focus on "cheap" subjects in the sense of "cheap to provide training" - training a medical doctor or a chemist apparently is far more expensive than training an MBA) - Professors teaching at private universities, are, of course, employed by those universities.

If you want to work in academia, you will have to jump through lots of hoops, usually going from one temporary contract to another until you get tenure. But all along the way, you are technically employed by the government (more strictly, Professors are employed by the state government, not by the federal government, because education is the domain of the federal states.

(Even more strictly speaking there are a few universities that are run by the military for educating their officers - those belong to the federal department of "defense", and the professors teaching there are employees of the federal government.)

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#319

Post by melling » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:46 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #303

melling wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES, this has been discussed a million times before. Please don't waste our time discussing the population density of the entire US. It's irrelevant. Can you give us the population density of Southern California vs Spain, for example?

It doesn't matter since Southern California isn't a political unit. Any significant rail improvements would require state and federal funding to be feasible.

First you use the argument that the entire United States is not as densely populated as Germany, which I pointed out is flawed. Now, you're trying some political tangent. First, we should agree that it is worth, or not worth, being built on technical merits then we can discuss the politics that follow. Jumping around in a scattershot discussion is not effective, unless your goal is to derail the conversation. Pun intended...

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#320

Post by JetSpiegel » Wed, Oct 01, 2014, 6:47 PM UTC

acadien wrote: post #291

saool wrote: post #287

I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so tha…

I agree with everything said above, but what about the fact that society will always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.? I'm not even sure that this is a counter point to what is mentioned above, just more thinking out loud. Is it possible to have a high functioning/efficient society in which there are no economic pressures to motivate people?

Why can't a plumber be also a free thinker?