Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 536 posts

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#141

Post by danielweber »

VLM wrote: post #79
Shivetya wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more concerned with good seats going to students who will never complete their degree, or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job. While the idea of removing costs sounds good there are just so many negatives. Means testing should still be done, raise the bar so that the truly well off are the only ones paying and not the lower income levels. The second "means" testing woul…

"or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job." There are more destructive forms of welfare than academic credentialism. Its an interesting idea to think about... if you can't get a job, go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job. I've checked the numbers and in terms of accounting overhead and criminal justice system overhead it is somewhat ch…

"go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job."

Even if it's "free," there are opportunity costs for spending years and years of your life in school. Rich families can afford these years with no problem. But the worst parts of a credentialism race fall on those at the bottom who can't spend a decade in school or can't hack the classroom material.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#142

Post by thrownaway2424 »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #29
tobinfricke wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees were really laughably small by U.S. standards, but fees, once implemented, seem to turn into a "slippery slope." So, as much as I like to mock my German students for complaining about having to pay €200 per semester, I think they were right to protest and "nip it in the bud". For instance, the University of California is formally tuition-free for in-state residents (edit: is this correct?), but over the last…

You're correct. I went to a UC and they didn't have tuition, but there was an "education fee" of several thousand dollars.

UC had very low fees until a combination of financial happenstance and determined Republican meddling (by Governor Reagan) forced them to first raise fees and then institute tuition. This was around 1983.

At the time actuaries for the state were projecting dramatic multi-decade declines in population. You can see how that turned out.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#143

Post by heinrich5991 »

andreasklinger wrote: post #101
vapourismo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400€ per year or per semester? Where? I am at the Institute of Technology in Berlin and I payed 290.37€ this semester, which includes 179.40€ for public transport.

so you paid 80€ more ?

No, he pays ~110€ less.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#144

Post by rbehrends »

raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

> Germany could not have produced Facebook.

"Could not" is a bit strong. "Unlikely" I'd agree with.

But my rationale is different: German businesses traditionally have a strong bias towards B2B models (esp. the "Mittelstand") and startups eschew consumer-facing business models. For example, America has Microsoft, Germany has SAP.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#145

Post by katbyte »

andreasklinger wrote: post #101
vapourismo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400€ per year or per semester? Where? I am at the Institute of Technology in Berlin and I payed 290.37€ this semester, which includes 179.40€ for public transport.

so you paid 80€ more ?

> 290.37€ this semester, which includes 179.40€

~110€ less

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#146

Post by zanny »

raverbashing wrote: post #109
psychometry wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do those philosophies have to be mutually exclusive? Can't you apply principles of social welfare to the public sector while allowing entrepreneurship in the private sector?

They don't have to be. But it's complicated. And sure, entrepreneurship is allowed, but then you'll have to convince your family of why are you not getting a nice job as a government clerk or something.

If you can get investors backing you, you really don't need to care what your family says.

It is just as cultural in the US that many families are affronted by their children or relatives that choose to try entrepreneurship over employment.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#147

Post by danielweber »

smtddr wrote: post #122
smm2000 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's useless to send most criminals (especially minorities with 1/3 jail ratio) to community colleges. Majority of them could not even finish high school and still read at fifth grade level after graduation. It's a noble idea but unfortunately education is not for everyone. The only result of sending unprepared people college, will be making college less safe and destroying quality of education for kids who are prepa…

This is the kind of attitude that makes it very difficult for someone who has made a mistake in life to recover from it. Nevermind the fact that the laws & bias application of them leading to many arrests are a mess. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/w...

It's the perfect twofer: a credentialism race combined with discriminating against those with criminal backgrounds. And it looks so innocent from the outside, too.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#148

Post by toyg »

cmdkeen wrote: post #35
edent wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't harm your credit rating, but... * You have to declare them when trying to get a mortgage (or any other loan) and so may reduce the amount you are leant. * If you go bankrupt - the loan does not go away. * Want to launch a funky startup? Now the graduates you want to work for you start demanding more money because a higher percentage now goes back to the Student Loan Company. I fought hard against the intro…

All of those things act like any other tax. That's all it is, a tax you may one day stop paying. A mortgage is dependent on your ability to repay, i.e. your net income, if the income tax rate went up then mortgage companies would also reduce the amount they would lend you. The alternatives are either a graduate tax - which has all of the issues you mention, except you never stop paying it, so potentially pay far more…

> general taxation in which case the people who didn't go to university (generally less well off) are paying for your degree.

That's a nice story, but it doesn't tally with the other story about UK tax revenues being overwhelmingly provided by well-off people. So which is which?

General taxation is not a bogeyman, if done fairly. If a poor person had to pay 1p per year to send a poor kid to university, with the other £8,999.99 being paid by a well-off person, I don't think the poor would have a problem with it... would you?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#149

Post by danielweber »

iammyIP wrote: post #56
cmdkeen wrote: post #18

There's a big difference between no tuition fees and "free" education. All this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers. Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems wit…

"[...] way past the point of marginal returns in terms of social or cultural advancement [...]" - how do you measure that? We have just started. More free education is always better, and as a bonus it forces society to automate mindnumbingly boring jobs when there is nobody left willing to do them. Imagine all People on Earth would have a university degree, good all-around education and culture would explode with the…

it forces society to automate mindnumbingly boring jobs when there is nobody left willing to do them

I missed the headline that the biggest problem with the economy right now is "too many jobs that are too boring to do."

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#150

Post by zanny »

iammyIP wrote: post #107
cmdkeen wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly the large number of graduates in non graduate job belies this. It's a massive con that there are anything close to the same benefits accruing to everyone who gets a university education. What should be happening more is people learning a trade. Germany's economic powerhouse status is not due to graduates nearly as much as skilled technical workers.

yes, it seems there are not enough paid places in society especially for cultural / liberal arts educated people and they end up as baristas or similar, but i dont see this as a bad thing. It puts pressure on automation, on re-thinking how a barista gets paid, it fuels anger and frustration of those affected and helps eventually changing thesed things to acommodate better to the current and future situation. The wors…

> The worst solution is to get less people educated

I agree with the sentiment that since the pointless massive debt of a university education makes the graduate baristas life more miserable and thus can become more frustrated and prone to demand change in the system, but you could have the same outcome by skipping the wasted years and just getting frustrated mixing drinks straight out of your compulsory state regimen.

Post reply on HN