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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

timeshighereducation.co.uk

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Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#111

Post by smm2000 »

VLM wrote: post #79
Shivetya wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more concerned with good seats going to students who will never complete their degree, or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job. While the idea of removing costs sounds good there are just so many negatives. Means testing should still be done, raise the bar so that the truly well off are the only ones paying and not the lower income levels. The second "means" testing woul…

"or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job." There are more destructive forms of welfare than academic credentialism. Its an interesting idea to think about... if you can't get a job, go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job. I've checked the numbers and in terms of accounting overhead and criminal justice system overhead it is somewhat ch…

It's useless to send most criminals (especially minorities with 1/3 jail ratio) to community colleges. Majority of them could not even finish high school and still read at fifth grade level after graduation. It's a noble idea but unfortunately education is not for everyone.

The only result of sending unprepared people college, will be making college less safe and destroying quality of education for kids who are prepared for college.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#112

Post by eqdw »

samuli wrote: post #65
jiggy2011 wrote: post #19

Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility? On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending. But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and t…

IIRC Finland has never had university tuition fees and it is the 3rd most equal country in the world. http://www.goodcountry.org/country/FIN Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies. My own experience is that there are people from very varying backgrounds in the Finnish u…

> Finnish students get allowance from the government for the duration of their studies (max ~60 months) and get government backed cheap loans which they start paying back after their studies.

Thought experiment: American students also get government backed cheap loans. Further, since these government-backed cheap loans are often used to cover cost of living as well as tuition, they are a de-facto allowance from the government (albeit one you need to pay back after you are graduated). And yet the american education system seems to have a bunch of dysfunctions that the Finnish one does not.

There has to be other differences that cause this, it can't be the presence of cheap loans. The conventional wisdom in America is that cheap loans incentivize universities to raise tuition, because they know the money is still coming in. Why does this effect not take place in Finland?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#113

Post by Ao7bei3s »

garagemc2 wrote: post #85
taejo wrote: post #37

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

Hey quick question - are comp sci courses in Germany taught in English throughout?

No.

Many are, especially higher level courses (ie, above the Bachelor level), but not nearly all of them. Some lecturers try to hold their lectures in English even though they speak it very poorly.

Pretty much all lecturers will happily take English questions and answer them in English. And all German comp sci students speak English.

For many courses which are held in German the materials are still in (some kind of) English. You can usually get by very, very well by skipping the classes entirely and learning from the provided materials only. In fact, that's what a large number of German students are doing too.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#114

Post by maemilius »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #58
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they do, but indirectly, via higher income taxes (because higher pay). The Dutch school system uses what you're suggesting actually; the government offers scholarships to all students, which is effectively a (low-interest) loan; if you finish your education, that loan or part thereof (depending on whether you took an extra loan, it's complicated) is forfeited, i.e. you don't have to pay it back. The remainder ca…

But could that not also be extended to any other programme which benefits the more wealthy disproportionately? If you have two people who earn the same amount of money and one receives a service (university education) and the other does not. Does it make sense to split the costs of that service if the one who received it can afford to pay on their own?

When put on small terms, like this, subsidized education always starts to look bad. Scaling it up makes it seem much more fair. As an American, I understand the concept of doing it yourself and not paying for things that don't benefit you. That said, I also understand that paying extra taxes to get more kids in better schools has more benefit to society than letting me keep that money.

Personally, I'd be happy to subsidize it in that way. The overall cost to me is low and the overall benefit to society is quite high.

It seems to me that most of the resistance comes from this "I had to do it, so you should too" mindset and it's really not beneficial to anyone. As Retic mentioned, this isn't a zero-sum game and thinking about it like it is doesn't help anyone.

A better use of your example would be to point out that both of those people may have been able to pay for a third person that couldn't have afforded it otherwise. The fact that one of them could have is irrelevant.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#115

Post by iammyIP »

VLM wrote: post #89
iammyIP wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[...] way past the point of marginal returns in terms of social or cultural advancement [...]" - how do you measure that? We have just started. More free education is always better, and as a bonus it forces society to automate mindnumbingly boring jobs when there is nobody left willing to do them. Imagine all People on Earth would have a university degree, good all-around education and culture would explode with the…

I don't live on the coasts and all the waitresses and bartenders and coffee baristas here have some kind of liberal arts degrees. My wife's hairdresser has a degree in English Lit IIRC. All that's exploding with the beauty of a supernova is their debts and higher ed administrator salaries. One of the waitresses at the local restaurant student taught at my son's school, and it doesn't make the service any better. Inte…

and the solution to that would have been to travel to the past and tell them: "don´t get a liberal arts degree! don´t study english literature! go apply to that hairdresser offering now!"?. A society puts people into incredible debt for an education with not much direct market value because it values that market more than itself?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#116

Post by smm2000 »

pessimizer wrote: post #100
raverbashing wrote: post #73

I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very interesting. American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works for me" European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements Germany could not have produced Faceb…

Germany could have produced facebook. edit: maybe better framed as a question - why do you think that Germany could not have produced facebook?

Germany has not so far produced a single website or app that is hugely popular internationally. It does not mean it could not - it certainly have educated population to do it but the fact is it has not.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#117

Post by eqdw »

taejo wrote: post #37

I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.

> of which the two largest components are "student services"

I also had to pay for student services at my (Canadian) university, for things like meal plans, supplemental health/dental/vision insurance, subsudized bus fare, etc. It cost about $300 a year, if I recall correctly. However, I was given the option of opting out. Are you not also given that option?

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#118

Post by sauere »

GolfyMcG wrote: post #57

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

Mediocre performance is what you get with a system like the one that is in place in Germany.

Let me throw in two numbers first:

- over the last 15 years the total number of students has increased by ~48% (while the total population has shrunk by 3%)

- the number of available majors has tripled within the last 7 years (with the large part of the new majors being in non-science fields)

People have not gotten smarter over the last 15 years, but the majors are getting less less challenging and more specialized. The universities focus on pushing as many people threw the system as possible. There is no place, time or money for excellence. They produce what the german industry wants, not more and not less. This can be good or bad, depending on what you want.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#119

Post by Shivetya »

VLM wrote: post #79
Shivetya wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more concerned with good seats going to students who will never complete their degree, or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job. While the idea of removing costs sounds good there are just so many negatives. Means testing should still be done, raise the bar so that the truly well off are the only ones paying and not the lower income levels. The second "means" testing woul…

"or the degree is not needed in the market and you end up with hobby and not a job." There are more destructive forms of welfare than academic credentialism. Its an interesting idea to think about... if you can't get a job, go to school for free collecting degrees and certifications until you get a job. I've checked the numbers and in terms of accounting overhead and criminal justice system overhead it is somewhat ch…

it might be cheaper to send someone to school but it only is so provided they are able to use that education. there is also no need for a complete college level education for many careers.

Instead they need to focus on provide the required education to get those who are economically disadvantaged into a higher and sustainable income level.

Regardless, we should not be in the business of paying for people to be students, especially those who can easily pay for it and for those who have no real goal in mind other than to be a student. Society is not at the point where we can simply employ people to learn who put it to no use.

Re: Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

#120

Post by peteretep »

troebr wrote: post #68
GolfyMcG wrote: post #57

Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on this list: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-ranki... I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

University rankings are full of manure if you will pardon my French. The model they use favors big general universities with a strong research department. Also how do you evaluate the learning environment? Number of flat screen tvs per student? Number of millions spent on sports facilities? Teaching: the learning environment (worth 30 per cent of the overall ranking score) Research: volume, income and reputation (wor…

Sure, but German universities are also surprisingly mediocre considering how good the Germans are at everything else.
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