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Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

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Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#111

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

That is amazing . I have had a lot of oh shit moments in my days, but none gets close to dropping the plutonium onto the uranium and nearly detonating a nuclear payload.

> I have had a lot of oh shit moments in my days, but none gets close to dropping the plutonium onto the uranium and nearly detonating a nuclear payload.

Not possible for a plutonium device, and this is why the implosion method was so technically challenging. The plutonium must be transitioned from subcritical to supercritical very, very fast to achieve any significant nuclear energy release. In the final design, shaped plastic explosives, chosen for their very high velocities, were used to compress the plutonium from all directions simultaneously, very fast. Then, after the compression phase is complete, a carefully timed burst of neutrons triggers the nuclear fission event.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#112
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, there wasn't any immediate danger of fission. It's just that now we know how deadly and powerful these things were, it seems almost endearing to see them being handled this way.

Are they? These aren't the multi-megaton nuclear behemoths that people associate with nukes post-cold war. Those bombs are three orders of magnitude more powerful than the one shown in the picture. This bomb is probably comparable to a warehouse full of conventional weapons, which the shirtless youngster was probably manhandling in his everyday work. And unlike a conventional weapon, it's pretty hard for a nuke of th…

They're still deadly, and as he said, it's simply endearing.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#113

I wonder if any of the guys in the photos realised to what extent they were (helping) rewriting history that day...

As far as we know, history can only be written the once. No rewrites.

We know a few other things too. For example, we know that anyone who confidently and bluntly asserts that "if X had been done Y would have happened" is not contributing to any useful discussion. People rarely know why they are doing what they are doing today, and certainly know almost nothing about why someone else did something half a century ago.

We can point to things people said and did in the past and make informed judgements about the plausibility of various reasons they had for doing what they did, but again: anyone who asserts bluntly and with confidence that "Japan would have surrendered if..." or "Japan did surrender because..." isn't helping.

Japan surrendered after Nagasaki was bombed. Some people think this shows that Hiroshima alone was not enough to convince the Japanese government that the new weapon would turn the tide of war against them.

Russia declared war on Japan after Hiroshima was bombed. Some people think this was important to Japan's surrender, but would it have happened without the bomb?

Japan had a history of fighting for every inch of territory. Some people think a conventional invasion would have resulted in a rapid conquest.

Area bombing in Europe had a relatively small effect on the Axis war effort, and an awareness of this was growing within the Allied command. Within military circles there tends to be a feeling that if something isn't working the best thing is to do more of it. The bomb was more of it. Thus, the ineffectiveness of area bombing in Europe may have contributed to the decision to use the bomb in Japan.

And so on...

It is worth noting that war itself is almost always strongly motivated by counter-factuals. "If we just bomb the enemy they will surrender" (they don't: they become more dogged in defense until they demonstrably face total destruction). "If we engage in horrific acts of terrorism the enemy will run in fear!" (they don't: terrorist organizations that employ violence against civilians have a zero--yes, zero--rate of effectiveness in achieving their goals: http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/792/why_terr...)

All we can say with anything remotely resembling certainty was that the bombs did drop and the war did end. We can make some informed guesses about why both sides decided the way they did. We can say virtually nothing with any certainty at all about what would have happened if any major decision had been different... except maybe one.

What if Japan had never attacked Pearl Harbor? This is a counter-factual that people who are wont to make blunt, confident predictions about "what would have happened" had the Allies never destroyed Hiroshima or Nagasaki are generally surprisingly silent about, yet it is one of the few things that would plausibly (not certainly) have avoided the subsequent destruction of those cities.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#114

It strikes fear into me that these folks are loading a device that is design to kill thousands of lives, the madness in this thing call war.

It strikes me as pure evil that the very first use of nuclear energy was to drop a massive bomb over a bunch of fellow humans. Surely the force of nuclear weapons could have been demonstrated without actually dropping it on a concentration of living, healthy people.

> It strikes me as pure evil that the very first use of nuclear energy was to drop a massive bomb over a bunch of fellow humans.

Atomic weapons are a natural evolutionary step up from conventional explosives, which are a natural evolutionary step up from clubs and rocks. All this talk about atomic weapons being qualitatively different (as opposed to quantitatively different) is mostly hyperbole, with one exception -- only wealthy industrial powers can create them ... so far.

> Surely the force of nuclear weapons could have been demonstrated without actually dropping it on a concentration of living, healthy people.

The people in charge decided that a demonstration wouldn't stop the war or the need to use the new weapons, and later events proved them right. Contrary to what many Americans believe, the Japanese didn't surrender because of the atomic bombings, but because Russia invaded Manchuria, a development the Japanese saw as much more dangerous than atomic bombs.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#115
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the purpose of the bomb was to save many thousands more lives than it ended. An invasion of Japan would've cost an enormous number of lives. It would've also had a catastrophic effect on the civilian population, because they were being told that the American troops were there to enslave them. It has even been said that the propaganda being told to the Japanese civilians included the idea that the troops wou…

How many children was it worth killing to make sure Japan lost? What if the alternative to bombing Japan wasn't an invasion of Japan? How about using those bombs on or over invading fleets of Japanese - if Japan ever actually planned to invade the US?

It's not like the country would have meekly gone home to lick its wounds, had the nasty Americans only left them alone. Remember the war started because of Japan's imperialistic dreams in SE Asia.

You might have visions of the U.S. systematically destroying any Japanese war power that ventured out for conquest while leaving the home islands untouched, but that kind of shepherding requires a degree of total military superiority we did not posses at the time.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#116
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I underestand, it was not purely confidence, it was also that there was a major war going on and the expected production rate was low, so the risk of failure in the field was judged a lesser cost than the using up another bomb in testing.

It took basically the entire Manhattan project to create enough U-235 for that single bomb dropped on Hiroshima. There was no more U-235 coming, at least not any on a scale or timeline for the war. It probably would have been more efficient to dilute the U-235 into reactor grade and use it to manufacture weapons grade Plutonium. However at the time the U.S. only had two bombs (the ones dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasa…

Well, there were basically a few different strategies to produce U-235 during the war. For Hiroshima, most of the Uranium came from a very temporary but quicker to setup using an electromagnetic process at Y-12 in Oak Ridge, and that ended with the war. The gaseous diffusion plant at K-25, also in Oak Ridge, came online in 1945 and ended up being the main enricher for much of the cold war; it was a construction marvel, and the fact it was built in 2 years is still remarkable. The US definitely would have been ready to produce many more in not too long for the war had it been needed.

All of these processes were brand new at the time and mostly untested. Plutonium enrichment at the Hanford site used a reactor design that was validated well into the construction of the site. The Manhattan project already had a lot of risks, and they weren't going to attempt chaining projects for something unproven. Real experiments came after the war.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#117

It always amazes me how seemingly careless they were with these nuclear devices back then. To know that such a devestating bomb was handled by a sultry, shirtless youngster, in a shed on a small island in the Pacific... It reminds me of the Slotin Incident ( http://www.damninteresting.com/bitten-by-the-nuclear-dragon/ ) where dr. Louis Slotin accidently slipped the screwdriver he used to separate two plutonium/uraniu…

It is not clear that dropping the bomb was necessary to end the war. Was it even necessary to develop it?

Eisenhower said "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

At the time Truman said Japan had been "repaid many fold" for Pearl Harbor. In these new images there is a bit of graffiti on the bomb allegedly written by a Rear Admiral: "a second kiss for Hirohito". It seems to me like the mood in the US camp was "let's hit them hard, teach them a lesson." rather than a more considered or balanced calculation.

Edit: in the documentary "The Fog of War" on McNamara, there is discussion of Curtis LeMay's decision to firebomb Tokyo. In that case there was apparently a degree of cool-headed calculation. http://www.errolmorris.com/film/fow_transcript.html

Some discussion of the nuclear bomb decision here: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/it-wasnt-necessary-to-hit-... (I have no idea what the politics of that paper are, caveat lector)

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as pure evil that the very first use of nuclear energy was to drop a massive bomb over a bunch of fellow humans. Surely the force of nuclear weapons could have been demonstrated without actually dropping it on a concentration of living, healthy people.

> It strikes me as pure evil that the very first use of nuclear energy was to drop a massive bomb over a bunch of fellow humans. Atomic weapons are a natural evolutionary step up from conventional explosives, which are a natural evolutionary step up from clubs and rocks. All this talk about atomic weapons being qualitatively different (as opposed to quantitatively different) is mostly hyperbole, with one exception --…

>The people in charge decided that a demonstration wouldn't stop the war or the need to use the new weapons, and later events proved them right. Contrary to what many Americans believe, the Japanese didn't surrender because of the atomic bombings, but because Russia invaded Manchuria, a development the Japanese saw as much more dangerous than atomic bombs.

If that is the case, then that proves they were dead wrong about their justification for the necessity of dropping those bombs in the first place. Why tell everyone "we need to bomb" in order for Japan to surrender when you knew it wouldn't stop the war?

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's amazing how much they charge for bombs that are smart.

Actually, most smart bombs (JDAMs) are just old, dumb bombs with a new "tail kit" containing a GPS and guidance electronics.

A tail kit that costs almost 10 times as much as the bomb.

Re: Declassified photos from Tinian Island as the B-29 “Enola Gay” was being loaded

#120

It strikes fear into me that these folks are loading a device that is design to kill thousands of lives, the madness in this thing call war.

Actually, the purpose of the bomb was to save many thousands more lives than it ended. An invasion of Japan would've cost an enormous number of lives. It would've also had a catastrophic effect on the civilian population, because they were being told that the American troops were there to enslave them. It has even been said that the propaganda being told to the Japanese civilians included the idea that the troops wou…

The purpose of the nuclear bomb was the same as the purpose of strategic bombing in general - to destroy buildings and infrastructure and kill people indiscriminately. The nuclear bomb was not fundamentally different in that aspect - strategic bombings had been going on for years and was highly destructive and deadly already. For example the firebombing of Tokyo with conventional bombs killed more people than the Hiroshima nuclear bomb. So the use of nuclear bomb did not require any special explanation or justification. It was natural extension of the strategy in use.

Of course it can be said that the purpose of the use of any weapon is to win and thereby end the was sooner, hence saving lives in the long run. In that case the purpose of any bomb, tank, landmine or gun is to save lives.

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