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Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

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Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#141

Post by dredmorbius »

idlewords wrote: post #93
plorkyeran wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it very easy to believe that the NSA could find a crime which Marissa Mayer (or anyone else) is guilty of and carries jail time as a punishment.

If you want to break out the black helicopters, note that it would have to be the FBI that did this.

No. The NSA would find the crime and communicate it to the FBI.

But if your point is that the NSA have no law enforcement role, that's salient.

Also: check your mail WRT http://idlewords.com/bt14.htm

I've posted a few fixes to that (excellent piece BTW) from my gmail account.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#142

Post by mattmanser »

amirmc wrote: post #115
skue wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but what would that look like? Would the FISA court jail a citizen without a trial, and can you imagine a FISA judge wanting to make that call, knowing that their decision will soon become public? Because once someone is prosecuted the U.S. govt would really have difficulty enforcing silence. It's one thing to force a company to be silent about surveillance, it's quite another to force individuals to be silent…

In an era of 'parallel construction', you build a separate case and use that as leverage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

That's simply blackmail, not 'parallel construction'.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#143

Post by crusso »

sfjailbird wrote: post #120
adventured wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many people I talk to think the expanding tyranny primarily comes from politicians or bankers or corporations (the blame targets). When it actually comes from their fellow citizens, effectively voting away rights election after election for decades.

The problem is that the system from the beginning was rigged against major change with the two-party system and the way state vs. federal authority is set up. Most of the rights that we pride ourselves on today were gained by citizen action (strikes, demonstrations) that were more often than not violently oppressed by the authorities, until the pressure threatened to undermine the stability of the system, in which ca…

Most of the rights that we pride ourselves on today were gained by citizen action

Most of the rights were gained by those outside of the entrenched power structures, whether it was a handful of founding fathers at the Constitutional Convention, Martin Luther King in the streets of Alabama, or newly-minted labor unions in the early 20th century factories.

Over time, all of these institutions developed and ossified, creating a ruling class that sought to preserve their own power rather than pursue their original missions that were meaningful and beneficial.

has all but closed this avenue for change

I feel like we've definitely passed a point of no return. We've lost the cohesion of purpose in this country to accomplish important things because the ruling class keeps us divided while they remain united, at least for the purpose of amassing power.

The only thing we have going for us is that most of the rest of the world suffers from the same set of problems, so relatively speaking, we're not that bad. The USA was something new for a while where the amassing of money was okay, but citizens recognized the evil of amassed power.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#144

Post by coldtea »

dredmorbius wrote: post #129
tptacek wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reprising a comment from a long time ago: Nacchio was convicted of running a pump-and-dump insider trading scam that netted him ~$100MM at the expense of common public shareholders. If there's an award for "most obnoxious implication of NSA's wrongdoing", it should go to the attempted rehabilitation of people like Nacchio. Here's the indictment. It's quite straightforward. http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/…

As has been noted below: an indictment is not a legal finding of fact. It's the worst possible case that the prosecution can make against the defense (in a criminal case). In a civil case, this would be the circumstance of the opening briefs of either side. An indictment will read very clearly, because that's how it's written . What it fails to do is take into account any exculpatory evidence or claims . This isn't p…

Well, it's a tough job defending the "agencies" in every circumstance, but someone has to do it.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#145

Post by lambda »

random42 wrote: post #109
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You of all people should know better than to give any credence to indictments . You know what purpose they serve, right?

Well.. I dont. what purposes do indictments serve?

An indictnment is a charge; it is the prosecutors formal presentation of the evidence collected so far that show's that there's enough evidence that a trial should be held.

As such, it's fairly one-sided. It's just what the prosecutor has presented to a grand jury, and the grand jury has said "yeah, that looks like enough evidence that it's worth having a trial." Note also that grand juries these days pretty much always just rubber-stamp whatever the prosecutor puts in front of them.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#146

Post by coldtea »

theworst wrote: post #90
higherpurpose wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that's how they are going to get anyone in the end, especially with their current mass spying capabilities and fishing expeditions. Remember this? http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527487044715045744... If you don't cooperate with whatever they want you to do they'll get you for something , and then they'll paint you as the scum of the Earth in the media, so nobody pays too much attention to what th…

Is your point that he wasn't a criminal, but had evidence and charges trumped because of his resistance? Or is your point that everyone that powerful has done something illegal, and those that are caught are "painted as scum" because of unrelated actions? In one case, we have a socially decent person (fuck "law abiding", in this context) who is wronged by "justice". In the other case, we have someone who got away wit…

>In one case, we have a socially decent person (fuck "law abiding", in this context) who is wronged by "justice". In the other case, we have someone who got away with something wrong, only to be nailed for something else. One person is a "solid citizen" (placed in quotes because, again, who knows what the fuck that means). The other is Al Capone.

No, if "everyone that powerful has done something illegal" then the other is what we call a scape-goat.

Al Capone was in criminal business through and through, not someone who had a legit business and also "had done something illegal", much less something that "everybody that powerful" had also done.

Intent matters too. Catching Al Capone for tax evasion was meant to punish him for his larger serious crimes. Whereas in this situation (if it's as described), the caught the guy for "insider trading" to punish him for something else he did RIGHT.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#147

Post by dijit »

mattmanser wrote: post #142
amirmc wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an era of 'parallel construction', you build a separate case and use that as leverage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

That's simply blackmail, not 'parallel construction'.

Just as 'Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder' is simply 'Shell Shock'

Language changes depending on how you want the person to feel about a subject.

if you want people to hate and revile someone for doing something you do call it something strong and fierce (blackmail) if you want to do something yourself make it sound lawful (IE; parallel construction).

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#148

Post by coldtea »

swartkrans wrote: post #17
xnull wrote: post #10

This is nothing compared to what allegedly happened to QWest. When the US Government was forcing telecom by telecom to install taps into their business's core routing hubs Joseph Nacchio, the CEO at the time, dug his heels in demanding legal avenues to avoid turning his back on QWest's customers. The US threatened to pull out large contracts that made up a large part of QWest's business. Furthermore, having been serv…

Was he actually guilty of insider trading?

Well, it's not like the governments cannot either manufacture a case to send an innocent man to jail or cover-up a wrongdoing -- they have been caught doing those things time and again.

Heck, there are people that had the death penalty due to planted evidence and/or witnesses in favor of them ignored, only to be found innocent decades later, through newer findings like DNA.

So who really knows, especially in particularly charged cases with special interest like this.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#149

Post by idlewords »

dredmorbius wrote: post #141
idlewords wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to break out the black helicopters, note that it would have to be the FBI that did this.

No. The NSA would find the crime and communicate it to the FBI. But if your point is that the NSA have no law enforcement role, that's salient. Also: check your mail WRT http://idlewords.com/bt14.htm I've posted a few fixes to that (excellent piece BTW) from my gmail account.

I will never check my email. Mwahahahaha!

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#150

Post by idlewords »

jdimov wrote: post #133
DominikR wrote: post #128

A militarized police state, the state subjugating private businesses according to its needs, state intrusions into the most private spheres of its citizens, executions of US citizens without trial, kidnappings - it all looks like we are moving straight into fascism. And I'm seeing the same pattern in the EU where I live since it basically copies whatever the US does. "Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of pri…

The US and Israel now have what the Nazis could only dream about.

Decent jet engines!

Seriously, you typed this statement and thought what? "Now we'll finally have a fruitful discussion on the hacker site"?

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