Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#271

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:34 PM UTC

elblanco wrote: post #264

dllthomas wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, you seem to be doing exactly that, while recursive seems to have read the laws you pointed at - which do not say what you claim them to say.

No I think he's right. At least around where I live (well, used to live, I'm in Korea at the moment), cyclists are not supposed to ride on roads that disrupt traffic or don't have a sufficient shoulder to pull off onto to let vehicles pass. By contrast in Korea, they're not supposed to use roads at all and you'll find everything from bikes to scooters sharing sidewalks with people on foot. But bikes aren't real commo…

The subthread was specifically discussing California. It remains my understanding that he was incorrect about CA law - cited specifically, above.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#272

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:36 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #187

recursive wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I found it for California. You seem to be wrong. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr... 21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations: (1) When overtaking and pass…

Nope. Keep searching. You found the law that allows bikes to share the road with cars. Now find the laws that I'm talking about. Off the top of my head for CA, 21202, 21654, 22400, and a few others. Bikes have responsibilities as well, not just unlimited privilege. edit Here's a WP page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law_in_California

"Nope. Keep searching."

As an aside, I'd like to object to this rhetorical technique. "You haven't found the thing that proves me right, therefore I am right" should not be permitted in arguments.

For the record, I don't think your intent was malicious, just calling attention to something I see a bit and don't like.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#273

Post by elblanco » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:47 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #180

iak8god wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Around here car taxes, road taxes, "environmental taxes" on fuel etc adds up to a whole lot more than the combined price of road maintenance and so on. That's really different from the situation in the States and the UK which is where I've seen the actual numbers. I'm not a heavy user of fuel, so may be a bit biased on this, but it seems really sensible to me to use taxes to compensate for externalities. For instan…

> For instance, I'd guess based on my general impressions of Scandanavia and other civilized places that Norway has publicly-funded universal healthcare. Good on you for that. Thanks! The first time I really understood the North American model where people have to pay to send their kids to college or go to the doctor, that was an eye opener for me. I now happily pay my taxes. > Now, doesn't it make sense for some of…

I honestly don't understand where most tax dollars go in the U.S. I'm in Korea at the moment and the tax burden is overall very light when compared to the States, but the level of service you receive is absolutely tremendous for the most part.

Example, if you make over around $85,000 USD, you fall into the maximum tax bracket, which is 35%. Most people pay around 25%. As a foreigner, I can also pay an alternative 17.5% instead.

There's also a 10% surtax at all income levels. So I can really get by with about 18.5% income tax (and there's all kinds of easy deductions).

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#274

Post by RyanMcGreal » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:47 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #135

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but John Forester was wrong - not about the mechanics of vehicular cycling, but the psychology. I'm a year-round, go-anywhere cyclist who rides in mixed traffic on side streets and major arterials alike, and I understand that this puts me in an extreme minority: more than 99% of people simply will not ride a bike unless they have a safe-looking, physically protected space in which to do it. North America spent…

I am amazed how some people think that with more facilities everyone will start cycling. It is fun but also quite impractical and sometimes very uncomfortable. It is only really feasible for most people if they live close to their work. Cars make people live much further.

> I am amazed how some people think that with more facilities everyone will start cycling.

I didn't say everyone will start cycling, I said more people will start cycling. Please stop attacking a straw man.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#275

Post by endzone » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:51 PM UTC

derekp7 wrote: post #239

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im sure its annoying, but its that way for a reason. You are belted into a multi-thousand-pound steel-reinforced vehicle. They are riding on some pipes with a Styrofoam block strapped to their head. I most states its legal for cycles (motor and non) to pass cars and pull to the head of the line at a light. Not sure why; but that's the way it is. Stopped cars + agile cyclist = no problem. When traffic is moving after…

The thing is, every time a car passes a bicycle on a busy road, especially one that isn't designed to accommodate bicycles and cars safely (i.e., one with 0 inches paved shoulder to the right of the white line) it is inherently dangerous. And if the bicycle causes the same car to pass multiple times, the agitation of the driver goes up. The safe thing to do, is for the bicycle to go ahead and pass on the right, stop…

struggling to think of a more unsafe and misguided approach to cycling in traffic than continually exiting and reentering the road. bizarre

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#276

Post by endzone » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #192

revelation wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments in this thread strongly suggest you are unsuitable for driving cars on public roads. The law rightfully places significant burdens on those operating multi-ton vehicles in the close proximity of pedestrians and cyclists. It also recognizes bicycles as proper vehicles, giving them the right to ride on roads, at the speed and position the situation calls for. I sincerely hope you won't ever hit anyone. Th…

I've been driving for 23 years in about as many countries with not a single traffic accident (though I'll admit to a couple speeding tickets). I've driven in weather, climates and conditions as varied as polar winter conditions to mountains and desert. I have something over a million road miles under my belt which puts me at near 20,000 hours of on the road driving experience in mixes of cities to extreme rural envir…

there is zero chance you're a good driver. you seem pretty deluded

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#277

Post by elblanco » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:54 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #253

bane wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you keep making the same two mistakes. 1) You don't actually know what the law is. You've cherry picked laws that allow bikes to share roads without having even a breath's familiarity with the responsibilities that also come with road usage and the laws that lay out those responsibilities. 2) You equate "being legal" with "being wise". It's perfectly legal for me to go on a diet of all broken glass. But it's a st…

Find any law that probibits bicycles from general use roads - there are none. But Cyclists are probibited from a small number of roads. The obvious conclusion is that some roads are too dangerous for cyclists and the rest are not. At least, not until self stupid cunts who are just bad drivers and who think they own the fucking road get behind the wheel. Your entire point seems to be "I am a selfish and bad driver, so…

You guys have carried this disagreement all over this post. I think bane's point is that even though it's perfectly legal to ride a bike wherever a car can go (which is not true in some cases like highways and visa-versa like biketrails), it may just not be a good idea.

I know when I ride I purposely try to avoid roads that have poor space for bikes. I don't feel safe and I don't want a distracted driver running me off the road. It took a couple near misses for me to learn that lesson, but I follow it and my rides are much more pleasant as a result.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#278

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 6:57 PM UTC

elblanco wrote: post #273

reitanqild wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, I'd guess based on my general impressions of Scandanavia and other civilized places that Norway has publicly-funded universal healthcare. Good on you for that. Thanks! The first time I really understood the North American model where people have to pay to send their kids to college or go to the doctor, that was an eye opener for me. I now happily pay my taxes. > Now, doesn't it make sense for some of…

I honestly don't understand where most tax dollars go in the U.S. I'm in Korea at the moment and the tax burden is overall very light when compared to the States, but the level of service you receive is absolutely tremendous for the most part. Example, if you make over around $85,000 USD, you fall into the maximum tax bracket, which is 35%. Most people pay around 25%. As a foreigner, I can also pay an alternative 17.…

> Example, if you make over around $85,000 USD, you fall into the maximum tax bracket, which is 35%.

In the US, the maximum income bracket has a 39.6% marginal rate and is reached at $400,001 in AGI for a single filer; the (weirdly narrow) 35% bracket starts at $398,351.

So if Korea has a 35% top bracket, witha 10% surtax, that starts around $85,000 USD, I'm not seeing how that's "overall very light when compared to the States".

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#279

Post by elblanco » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 7:01 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #257

bane wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because heaven forbid a cyclist hits a rock or something and ends up as a bumper decoration on my car through absolutely no fault of my own. I don't want to deal with the risk or guilt of something like that happening and it's not the cyclist's right to make that kind of decision for me. Cars are extremely dangerous to be around when in motion. Motorcyclists are also at risk, true, but they can move at car spee…

'For fun find a cyclist discussion somewhere where they complain about something like this and post a mildly worded suggestion and see what kind of response you get. I absolutely guarantee it won't be "yeah, you know what, maybe we should be observing traffic laws like we're supposed to"' The East Bay Bicycle Coalition, at least, explicitly tells bikers to abide by the laws, and offers classes in (amongst other thing…

Part of the problem is that people get bikes as kids, then as they got older just start using them on the road without any real understanding of the laws and regulations on bikes. They don't realize that it's a vehicle, there's no required driver training, or licensing or anything to ride a bike on the road like with a car.

As kids you can kind of ride your bike wherever you want, as adults riders just sort of expand where they can ride to include roads and don't really give much thought to it. Police don't really seem to enforce the laws either, so you're kind of on your own to educate yourself or develop some method of ridership that works.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#280

Post by elblanco » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 7:05 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #135

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but John Forester was wrong - not about the mechanics of vehicular cycling, but the psychology. I'm a year-round, go-anywhere cyclist who rides in mixed traffic on side streets and major arterials alike, and I understand that this puts me in an extreme minority: more than 99% of people simply will not ride a bike unless they have a safe-looking, physically protected space in which to do it. North America spent…

I am amazed how some people think that with more facilities everyone will start cycling. It is fun but also quite impractical and sometimes very uncomfortable. It is only really feasible for most people if they live close to their work. Cars make people live much further.

I think it'll definitely make biking more approachable for people who are interested but scared to ride next to vehicles and their inattentive drivers. One side benefit of lots of bike lanes is that they're also good spaces for people on foot, sidewalks kind of aren't necessary so long as you follow basic ideas about slower traffic to the right and faster traffic to the left.