Earlier quoted context omitted.
You mean me declaring a hobby and co-opting somebody else's purpose built area for it and then blaming them when my hobby inevitably interferes with their rightful usage of their purpose built travelway?
You're the first person in this thread to even use the word "hobby". Nobody else is talking about a hobby. They're talking about a means of transportation.
Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
211–220 of 303 posts
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good thing I don't live in those places then. But I do live in a place where the roads were built for cars. And separate travel passages were built for bikes. Yet bikes are all over the roads. Can I take my car on the bike trails?
Where do you live? I am genuinely curious. This is a local issue, and you are speaking in global platitudes. If no one near you wants to bike, fine. Make everything an interstate. But if there are bikes all around... it appears someone near you does want to bike. I doubt the bike trails near you are even a minimally spanning tree of every place a person needs to go.
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ok, I found it for California. You seem to be wrong. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr... 21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations: (1) When overtaking and pass…
Nope. Keep searching. You found the law that allows bikes to share the road with cars. Now find the laws that I'm talking about. Off the top of my head for CA, 21202, 21654, 22400, and a few others. Bikes have responsibilities as well, not just unlimited privilege. edit Here's a WP page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law_in_California
21202 and 21654 explicitly list restrictions that must be followed when traveling at "less than the normal speed of traffic". This suggests to me that doing so is legal. By the way, 21202 is exactly what I quoted to you, so it's kind of funny that you would repeat it back to me.
22400 deals with impeding traffic, "unless it's necessary for the safe operation" of the vehicle. I don't know who determines what is necessary for safe operation, but travelling at a speed achievable by humans is certainly necessary for the operation of bicycles, and bicycles are explicitly granted permission to use roads.
I certainly don't see any clear legal requirements in general to maintain any specific minimum speed limit.
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
The road is not a perfectly good place for bikes to travel. It's like saying the conveyor belt in an automated slaughter house is a good place to dance because it's flat and doesn't move too fast or that pedestrians should just walk down the middle of the road because it's not a bad walking surface. The biggest possible problem is that as the auto driver you become responsible for any bike rider you come into contact…
Respectfully, you seem a bit unhinged over this. How, exactly, are you harmed by having to share the road safely with non-motor vehicles? Your stated concern over protection applies equally to motorcyclists, yet you seem to have no problem with them. Your real concern seems to a presumption that you would get to work faster if it weren't for bicyclists. This is very unlikely in reality, and certainly no more than a c…
Cars are extremely dangerous to be around when in motion. Motorcyclists are also at risk, true, but they can move at car speeds and don't become a road obstacle to be avoided. I don't have any personal history of motorcyclists droning on and on about how unsafe the roads are when they're driving at some fraction of the speed limit and swerving in and out in front of speeding cars. But as the comments in just this thread indicate, cyclists seem to think the entire road system was purpose built for them and anybody not on two human powered wheels should adjust everything else they're doing just for them. No matter how you approach the topic, cyclists have convinced themselves this is true and it's every other person in the world's fault that they entered into an unsafe practice.
When my grandmother was learning to drive quite late in life (in her 50s). There were roads that she was literally unsafe driving on. Somebody recommended that maybe she should't drive on those roads. And you know what? She thought it was a good idea and didn't. She didn't blame all the people who drive above 60 mph, or the road engineers, or anybody else. She recognized that she was taking part in an unsafe practice and chose not to do it. She spent time finding alternate routes and ways to get where she wanted without dealing with those roads and as a result never had a road accident.
Runners, skateboarders, rollerskaters, motorcyclists, segway riders....in general don't act like bicyclists and don't have this specifically shitty attitude. A cyclist wants to meander along the middle of a high speed road and nearly get killed several times over, well that's the cars' fault. Cyclist runs a stopsign and nearly gets flattened? Cars' fault. Cyclist grabs my window well for a push off and damages the weatherstripping, well fuck me because he's on a bike and I should just know better than to expect a drive where my personal property doesn't get molested and damaged by cyclists.
Even suggesting that "maybe you shouldn't have been riding on that road" or "maybe you should be observing traffic signals" or "maybe you shouldn't put your hands on other people's property" is met with an almost militant rebut.
For fun find a cyclist discussion somewhere where they complain about something like this and post a mildly worded suggestion and see what kind of response you get. I absolutely guarantee it won't be "yeah, you know what, maybe we should be observing traffic laws like we're supposed to"
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For instance, I'd guess based on my general impressions of Scandanavia and other civilized places that Norway has publicly-funded universal healthcare. Good on you for that. Thanks! The first time I really understood the North American model where people have to pay to send their kids to college or go to the doctor, that was an eye opener for me. I now happily pay my taxes. > Now, doesn't it make sense for some of…
> The part I don't like is where they call it road tax or environmental tax only to go ahead and use it for something completely different. Well, even a little honesty may be too much to expect from politicians anywhere. I'm guessing you were downvoted above by people who had trouble imagining the existence of a place where automobile ownership and use is taxed to the levels you describe.
That's what I thought too.
(I had a feeling a few days ago that someone who recently got their downvote privilege has been a little extra triggerhappy but I'm not sure. This is the first time I got hit.)
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right? Would you walk in the middle of the road? No, because that's idiotic and stupid. But sit on a few pounds of rubber and tubed aluminum, travel only slightly faster than the same moronic pedestrian and now it's a smart commuting idea? You've chosen to go out and share the roads that were built for cars and decided for every driver (who are actually entitled…
There is a great blog post by People for Bikes which debunks most of these common myths surrounding biking. http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/bike-myths-debunked
Some early GRM trails were converted into automobile roads as time went on, while others were purpose built for the car. A combination of military usage, agricultural concerns and the automobile lobby helped bring about the FHA.
One of the earliest national highway proposals (from the 1900 Good Roads Convention) actually specifically advocated for separate divisions of the road surface for cars, bikes, pedestrians and decorative elements.
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually if you want to take that article literally it means that in almost every case a cyclist is killed it's their fault. Demonstrating once again that cyclists presume everybody else's area, even to the point of danger to themselves.
> Actually if you want to take that article literally it means that in almost every case a cyclist is killed it's their fault. Right, because all police officers and DAs and everyone is 100% unbiased in all circumstances no matter what? Also from the article: "Take Sgt. Richard Ernst of the San Francisco Police Department, who confronted people holding a memorial at the scene of Ms. Le Moullac’s death. Parking his sq…
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually if you want to take that article literally it means that in almost every case a cyclist is killed it's their fault. Demonstrating once again that cyclists presume everybody else's area, even to the point of danger to themselves.
That's incorrect. At the most, you could only infer that it wasn't legally the driver's fault. There's a huge middle ground where fault won't be pinned on either side.
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
The road is not a perfectly good place for bikes to travel. It's like saying the conveyor belt in an automated slaughter house is a good place to dance because it's flat and doesn't move too fast or that pedestrians should just walk down the middle of the road because it's not a bad walking surface. The biggest possible problem is that as the auto driver you become responsible for any bike rider you come into contact…
> The biggest possible problem is that as the auto driver you become responsible for any bike rider you come into contact with because they are unprotected regardless of the circumstances of the contact. I didn't ask them to get on the road with me, but I'll sure as hell be held responsible for their decision if something happens. This is bullshit. If you hit and kill a pedestrian, you're not always at fault, even th…
Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's pretty awful and I can see how it might affect your views on cyclists. I would want to punch those guys myself. I had the good fortune to start cycling seriously with a university club where the coach was really strict about safe riding being a pre-requisite to participation and as such I don't do the kinds of things you're talking about. In fact most of the cyclists I know don't do that stuff either. But just…
Thanks. I support cycling, I think it's great. I wish it was easier and more practical to do in the U.S. What I don't support is this weird viewpoint that lots of American cyclists seem to have that the world revolves around their hobby and/or transportation choice. America was built around the car, it sucks, but that's the way it is. I don't like it, I wish it wasn't that way and I'm absolutely in love with the curr…
The part I take issue with is "were not intended" because the laws are very clear on what rights and responsibilities cyclists have when using the roads. The law gives them a right to be there.
The majority of states laws on the matter say that you have to ride as close as is practicable to the edge of the road and that cars are required to give you a three foot space when passing or overtaking or whatever you'd like to call it. And then many go on to state that when the lane is narrow enough that cars can't give you the three feet and still pass safely, you get the whole lane. In Texas and Florida if the lane is less than 14 feet wide there is no adjacent, designated bicycle lane (not the shoulder, but a designated lane) then the cyclist has the right to the whole lane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law_in_the_United_State...
In many states you're legally allowed to ride two abreast provided that it doesn't impede traffic so in cases with wide enough bike lanes this is OK and it's also allowed on roads where the lane is less than 14 feet wide and there is no bike lane.
http://www.biketexas.org/en/infrastructure/texas-bicycle-law...
A lot of states also have laws that specify that cyclists must pull over and let cars pass if more than say 5 of them are piled up behind a cyclist, unable to pass. That's definitely a legitimate grievance for cars as they have the right to demand the cyclist let them pass but few know about the law much less follow it.
In the first picture you linked the lane looks to be of questionable width (probably less than 14 feet) in which case what the riders are doing is not only legal but also for their own safety. Once more than 5 cars are behind them though, they all need to pull off and let everyone pass. I suspect that most of the cyclists you encounter conveniently "forget" about that part of the law, aggravating drivers.
The "take the lane" laws are on the books so that cyclists can prevent cars from passing on roads that aren't wide enough to safely permit passing. It's infuriating at times when it's a single lane road and cyclists are poking along at 20mph instead of 50mph but the law enshrines this right.
I can understand the frustration you feel when cyclists follow the law and take up a whole lane, and further when they break the law and don't allow passing. But that's what the law says so I have to respectfully disagree about the use of the word "intended"