Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#201

Post by cowpewter » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 12:59 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #141

DanBC wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you have special roads? Dofferet from all those other roads? But not so special that bicycles were forbidden from using them? Not like all the roads that bicycles are forbidden from using? Read the fucking law. You are wrong. Here's California's bit of law grantin cyclists the same rigts and responsibilities as other road users: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law_in_California > 21200. (a) Every person ri…

Why don't you read the fucking law? https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22400.htm No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law. http://www.carinsurance.com/Articles/driving-too-slow-ticket... That's right. Every state has a law on…

A bicycle is legally a "vehicle" but it is not a "motor vehicle." That is an actual distinction that is important when reading those laws.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#202

Post by bane » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:06 AM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #84

bane wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People around where I live are smart enough to keep their horses off of the roads and onto horse trails (or in a trailer when they're transporting them). And despite having hundreds of miles of dedicated bike trails I still get stuck behind some guy in full bike kit going 15 mph in the middle an undivided 2 lane 45 with double yellow at least once a week. Being a 15-20 minutes late because he couldn't be bothered to…

Hang on, you want the people who are currently cycling, to drive cars containing bicycles to where the dedicated lanes are, park these cars, then cycle on, because you think this will stop you being delayed in traffic as much? Are you this irrational in general, or is it just on this topic?

I don't give a bag of squirrels how they get there, so long as they aren't putting themselves and me in danger or inconvenience.

I'm not responsible for their decision to bike, how they get to the trails is not my concern. They've decided to take up this hobby not me. I shouldn't be penalized or made liable for their decision.

It's not their right to impose upon me their safekeeping because they decided to take an unsafe and alternate form of transportation on road surfaces that are clearly not engineered or planned for bike usage.

If they want to lobby for better bike trails and safer areas to bike. I'll be right out there holding the sign at the rally. I'll even give up extra income in the form of tax dollars to make it a reality. Because it's good for everybody. But biking on high speed roads that are unsafe for bikes isn't good for anybody.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#203

Post by nknighthb » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:10 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #189

recursive wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It hurts to see an equivalent situation tossed back at you doesn't it. No, what's hurting my brain is how someone could think that's an equivalent situation.

You mean me declaring a hobby and co-opting somebody else's purpose built area for it and then blaming them when my hobby inevitably interferes with their rightful usage of their purpose built travelway?

You're the first person in this thread to even use the word "hobby". Nobody else is talking about a hobby. They're talking about a means of transportation.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#204

Post by Pxtl » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:17 AM UTC

schwap wrote: post #158

osconfused wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is the only place in the world where jaywalking is a crime. The notion there is a correct route between two points is rather bizarre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking

That article contradicts you, i.e. > Poland > Jay-walking is an offense. One may cross only at recognized crossing points if there is one within 100m. If caught by the police, the typical punishment is a > fine.[citation needed] The same applies to crossing at a red light. > Kosovo > It is illegal to cross the road where there are no proper pedestrian signals or signs, resulting in fines of up to 20 Euros. Furthermor…

So you're saying he forgot Poland?

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#205

Post by msandford » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:21 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #179

mindslight wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point does not refute what I said. It shows that no drivers have been criminally blamed, ruling out one kind of injustice against drivers. Other injustices, such as undeserved wrongful death/bodily injury compensation may have occurred. Regardless, OP isn't normally this obtuse. He's clearly reacting to a perceived injustice, even if it does not exist. Please read my above comment again and try to understand why…

Actually if you want to take that article literally it means that in almost every case a cyclist is killed it's their fault. Demonstrating once again that cyclists presume everybody else's area, even to the point of danger to themselves.

> Actually if you want to take that article literally it means that in almost every case a cyclist is killed it's their fault.

Right, because all police officers and DAs and everyone is 100% unbiased in all circumstances no matter what?

Also from the article:

"Take Sgt. Richard Ernst of the San Francisco Police Department, who confronted people holding a memorial at the scene of Ms. Le Moullac’s death. Parking his squad car in the bike lane, forcing other cyclists into the very traffic that killed Ms. Le Moullac, Sergeant Ernst berated those gathered, according to witnesses, and insisted that Ms. Le Moullac had been at fault. Days earlier, the department had told cycling activists that it had been unable to find surveillance footage of the crash.

Provoked by Sergeant Ernst, people at the memorial decided to look for themselves. It took them all of 10 minutes to find an auto shop nearby with a camera that had footage of the incident. The police eventually admitted that the truck driver was at fault, but they still have not pressed charges."

Truck runs over and kills woman. Cops don't cite or charge truck driver, nor do they investigate. Friends do investigate, turns out the driver was at fault. Still no charges by the DA. Clearly there is some bias.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#206

Post by bane » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:21 AM UTC

msandford wrote: post #198

bane wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a full on collision last year that sprained my elbow so bad I may have to get surgery. I'm waiting to see if it heals up. The bicyclist gave me an earful about blocking the shared-use trail with my walking until I called pulled out my phone to call the cops and then he high tailed it out there. It was literally a vehicular hit and run. And if I need surgery will cost me thousands of dollars and months of physic…

That's pretty awful and I can see how it might affect your views on cyclists. I would want to punch those guys myself. I had the good fortune to start cycling seriously with a university club where the coach was really strict about safe riding being a pre-requisite to participation and as such I don't do the kinds of things you're talking about. In fact most of the cyclists I know don't do that stuff either. But just…

Thanks. I support cycling, I think it's great. I wish it was easier and more practical to do in the U.S.

What I don't support is this weird viewpoint that lots of American cyclists seem to have that the world revolves around their hobby and/or transportation choice. America was built around the car, it sucks, but that's the way it is. I don't like it, I wish it wasn't that way and I'm absolutely in love with the current trend in urban planning to de-emphasize the car and reemphasize more efficient transport modes: bikes, trams, subways, etc.

As somebody who doesn't live in a city, this trend is not good for me because it makes it hard to get in and out of the city. But I recognize it as a better way for more people than just me and my car and I can get myself over my minor inconvenience and just drive to the local mass transit link and walk a bit instead of fighting for parking downtown.

There's a balance somewhere, but cyclists don't seem to want to recognize it. They want to feign anger and offense when motorists complain when they take their bikes onto roadways that were not intended or engineered for them and they block traffic and cause safety issues.

I recognize that not all cyclists are like this, but damn if the ones around my area aren't some kind of special crop of bastards (and there's enough of a population that bikes to support a very nice local bike shop I can walk to). I'm actually hoping that with better bike infrastructure more people get on bikes and drown these kinds of assholes out. The more people biking, the greater the political lobby to continue building out good balanced infrastructure for everybody and the more unacceptable it will be for bad cyclists to get onto automobile roads.

If you want an idea of the kind of nonsense I deal with almost weekly, here's a picture I found (not my area but looks close enough) https://imgur.com/q1xM217

To be clear, I don't really have a problem with this https://imgur.com/E8CGnmt other than I hope the guy on the left doesn't fall over or veer into highway traffic. But they're both off the road, not bothering anybody and doing their thing.

You know what I'd love to see in that second picture? A barrier between me and them and that shoulder turned into a dedicated, clearly marked bike trail. At intersections, I'd love to see tunnels and overpasses purpose built for them. I'd love love love that.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#207

Post by Pxtl » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:28 AM UTC

bane wrote: post #202

lotsofmangos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hang on, you want the people who are currently cycling, to drive cars containing bicycles to where the dedicated lanes are, park these cars, then cycle on, because you think this will stop you being delayed in traffic as much? Are you this irrational in general, or is it just on this topic?

I don't give a bag of squirrels how they get there, so long as they aren't putting themselves and me in danger or inconvenience. I'm not responsible for their decision to bike, how they get to the trails is not my concern. They've decided to take up this hobby not me. I shouldn't be penalized or made liable for their decision. It's not their right to impose upon me their safekeeping because they decided to take an un…

It's not a hobby, it's a commute. And it's one with far fewer negative externalities and government subsidies than yours.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#208

Post by bane » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #184

DannyBee wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, cyclists can't physically cause road accidents that kill drivers? Interesting (and false :P)

I can't think of any scenario where a driver could kill somebody in an accident where the driver isn't at fault for it, except for cases where the cyclist at fault gets themselves killed. How does it work?

Here's an easy one that's almost happened to me a few times.

Picture this.

http://wabikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Snohomish_bicy...

Guy on bike hits a rock or crack in the road or whatever and loses control, veers or falls in front of the car in his lane. Speed limit on the road is 40. No time to brake the driver is forced to cut across the double yellows into the oncoming lane where he hits another car head on (driving above the speed limit doing 50). Drivers in both cars are killed instantly.

Second scenario: seeing the oncoming car, the driver veers to the right, goes offroad and down an unseen gully, hits a tree head on and is taken to a hospital by an ambulance but dies from head injuries along the way.

Of course there's the third scenario where the cyclist is killed: Driver can't do anything, tries to brake, but runs over the cyclist killing him in the process.

All three scenarios are why I support this kind of road having dedicated bike-only zones off the shoulders.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#209

Post by mindslight » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

msandford wrote: post #194

mindslight wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police tend to look at cyclists the way you do, and many times don't find fault with drivers even if cyclists are KILLED much less injured or have their bikes destroyed. I mostly drive these days, but I'm no friend of cars in general or police for that matter. However it's important to keep in mind that injustices occur both ways, and forming blanket statements is a great way to end up just talking past one ano…

I think the consequences of the injustices are highly asymmetric and that skews people's sense of what is right and wrong. Cyclists tend to pay with their bodies or their lives when something goes wrong in the street. Drivers -- at least when cyclists are involved -- do not. And often they do not get prosecuted at all. Please read the article linked, it has several examples. I can find plenty more if you like. If a d…

I'm well aware of cases like the recent CA Sheriff's Deputy, and think it would be appropriate to charge him with manslaughter.

I agreed with the rest of your comment, just thought that specific passage was starting to preach past.

My original point is that a police bias against bikers doesn't refute that in a different situation, a driver may be incorrectly civilly blamed for an accident. Let's say a biker comes around a corner on the wrong side of the road, the oncoming car manages to stop, yet the biker then hits the hood and unluckily dies. The biker is clearly responsible for this, yet if the driver's insurance pays out a $100k wrongful settlement, nobody is going to feel bad for them.

Also it's quite possible that "responsible for" was meant in the moral sense of controlling a ton of steel - that's what we want people to do, right?

I was referencing "sidewalks" still in the context of cars - a biker coming into an intersection from the sidewalk at speed is an unsafe menace.

Honestly reflecting on this thread, I bet this would be a ripe topic for researching degenerate us-vs-them politics.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#210

Post by bane » Thu, Sep 11, 2014, 1:38 AM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #196

bane wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, those 3% that predate the automobile were meant for horses, carriages and pedestrians. 0% of the vehicle purposed roads in my area are meant for bikes. However, I don't know how many miles of bike trails there are in my region, but the county next to mine has ~500miles of bike trail, with some non-negligible percentage being ultra high quality purpose built bike trails (paved, marked and lighted in many places…

I've cycled for fun a little bit, but I have cycled to get to work a lot, both in cities and rural areas. I don't really think of my bike in terms of going to visit trails, it is purely a means of getting around that I also can take on a train. This is in the UK, a lot of it in London, which is an exciting place to cycle and you do generally have to work on the assumption that everybody is trying to kill you, though…

I hear you on all fronts and agree (don't be surprised). In London, walking is frequently faster than driving. I've jumped off a bus more than once to just walk the rest of the way since it was faster.

I posted this elsewhere as an example of the kind of nonsense I'm frequently dealing with where I live.

http://imgur.com/q1xM217

This is not my area and I didn't take the picture, but it's near enough looking to quite a few roads near my area that it may as well be. Even if it was just one of these guys, I guarantee you he'd be in the middle of the road impeding traffic. I see it weekly and it's unbelievably irritating and dangerous.