Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City • Hacker News Board

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#111

Post by sedachv » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:05 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #82

keepper wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except I pay for the roads.. you know.. registration, taxes on gas, taxes on purchase of the car, etc etc... But hey, you're welcome to pay a little for the roads too ;)

Cars also inflict many externalities onto others that other forms of transportation do not (pollution, increased travel distance, injuries and deaths, etc.), and yet drivers seem less keen on paying extra to compensate for those costs.

The biggest externality cost in the United States by far is parking. Many cities have mandatory parking space requirements for businesses that impact not just new developments but re-purposing of existing properties (ex: restaurants must provide so-and-so many free parking spaces per thousand square feet; you have to do this even if you're converting an existing property into a restaurant). This is a huge pain for a lot of people trying to open small businesses.

This is more of a zoning issue though (I think mandatory parking ordinances should be repealed and all parking should be privatized).

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#112

Post by bane » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

fidlefodl wrote: post #48

soperj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those bikers who hates sharing roadways with cars. It's not that I have to share, but between taking up so much of the road, pure safety concerns for bikers(since automobile drivers win every single colition) and generally shitty entitled attitude lots of car drivers seem to have (most likely because there are more of them so they think they own the road) I get my hackles raised every time I see one on the…

> I see more people driving break the law every day while driving then I've ever seen bikers do in my entire life. People are jerks regardless of what they use to commute with. I don't think he (or many) would claim otherwise. The issue isn't the people who ride bikes, but rather the mode they choose to travel with and the impact it has on your drive. Bikers cause all sorts of added danger to both themselves, and you…

Right. I don't get it. Bikers put themselves out in purposely dangerous environments and then are mystified and upset when they get hurt and angry at the environment they chose to ride in. I have absolutely zero patience for that kind of idiotic selfishness.

If somebody wants to ride a bike and wants to lobby for better bike riding infrastructure, I will be right there with them, even if it raises my taxes.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#113

Post by mindslight » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #66

mindslight wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police tend to look at cyclists the way you do, and many times don't find fault with drivers even if cyclists are KILLED much less injured or have their bikes destroyed. I mostly drive these days, but I'm no friend of cars in general or police for that matter. However it's important to keep in mind that injustices occur both ways, and forming blanket statements is a great way to end up just talking past one ano…

The difference is that drivers are killing cyclists without consequences, while cyclists aren't killing drivers, because it's not physically possible.

That asymmetry will always exist. The only way to eliminate it is to prevent any accident between bikes and cars by having completely separate networks.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#114

Post by turar » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #77

turar wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a motorist who sees cyclists daily, I have yet to see a cyclist obey a stop sign. I see blatant disregard for stop signs every single day. Same thing for red lights -- I see cyclists routinely disregard red lights, unless crossing a busy road, where disregarding a red light will certainly get them killed.

As a motorist who drives with other motorists daily, I'm appalled at the driving habits of motorists. I rarely see them obeying simple traffic rules. Motorists seem incapable of obeying posted speed limits, and seem not to understand the meaning of the amber light. Motorists also have a problem with roll-stops. I have yet to see a motorist using turn signals properly. In consequence, I've started advocating that moto…

Sorry, these seem like exaggerations, based on my own experience. There are certainly a percentage of motorists who ignore traffic rules, but it's nowhere near the percentage of cyclists who do so. Again, this is based on my experience only.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#115

Post by CountSessine » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #67

soperj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those bikers who hates sharing roadways with cars. It's not that I have to share, but between taking up so much of the road, pure safety concerns for bikers(since automobile drivers win every single colition) and generally shitty entitled attitude lots of car drivers seem to have (most likely because there are more of them so they think they own the road) I get my hackles raised every time I see one on the…

Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right? Would you walk in the middle of the road? No, because that's idiotic and stupid. But sit on a few pounds of rubber and tubed aluminum, travel only slightly faster than the same moronic pedestrian and now it's a smart commuting idea? You've chosen to go out and share the roads that were built for cars and decided for every driver (who are actually entitled…

Wow - butt-hurt much?

I pay an absolute fortune every year in property taxes to subsidize high-speed road construction for selfish, entitled, ungrateful drivers like yourself - you're welcome! In return, I'd like to be able to ride my bicycle on the edge - indeed, the very fringe - of those magnificent roads that I paid for without getting run down by some low-life eating a breakfast bagel and talking on his cell phone while driving. And yet, in his mind, I'm the one behaving selfishly for commuting on the road that I paid for.

Astonishing.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#116

Post by bane » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #89

bane wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right? Would you walk in the middle of the road? No, because that's idiotic and stupid. But sit on a few pounds of rubber and tubed aluminum, travel only slightly faster than the same moronic pedestrian and now it's a smart commuting idea? You've chosen to go out and share the roads that were built for cars and decided for every driver (who are actually entitled…

Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right? I suspect the Romans would be very surprised if you could go back and tell them.

Well their roads weren't built for bikes either if you want to get technical about it.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#117

Post by DanBC » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #85

DanBC wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, you are aware that the roads were built for cars right? No, they were not. They were built for horses - with and without carriages - and bicycles and motorbikes and cars and vans and trucks and buses. > You've chosen to go out and share the roads that were built for cars Criminal offence for cyclists to use the pavement.

I can absolutely guarantee you that not a single road within 10 miles of my home was built for a horse or carriage and maybe 3% have history back to pre-auto time periods. They were built specifically for automobiles travelling at speed.

Wait, you have special roads? Dofferet from all those other roads? But not so special that bicycles were forbidden from using them? Not like all the roads that bicycles are forbidden from using?

Read the fucking law. You are wrong. Here's California's bit of law grantin cyclists the same rigts and responsibilities as other road users:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_law_in_California

> 21200. (a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division... except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.

The rights of cyclists to use the road is specifically written into law.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#118

Post by HCIdivision17 » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #35

HCIdivision17 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you're joking, but horses aren't much fun to share a road with either. They're slower than the traffic and literally defecate anywhere. It's positively impressive how much urine can be left behind at a stop light.

Road users come in many types. At one point cities were full of horse shit and now they are full of smog from vehicle fumes. No matter your preferred choice of ride, other people's choices may interfere with your day, but it is your choice if you let that get you angry. Personally, I think people who become dangerously enraged from having to deal with other forms of transport, should probably not be operating a motor…

To be sure, driving emotionally is a terribly dangerous thing to do. Personally I thought it was cool to see the horses, but the plant engineer in me fears animals on the road (no matter how big). And the motorcyclist in me fears the giant heap of poo to slip on.

My attitude is whatever has the most momentum gets right of way; but again, I think forklifts will do that to a person. I doubt I could ever have the nerve to ride a bicycle in a city.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#119

Post by mjmahone17 » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:10 PM UTC

Zarathust wrote: post #26

shiftpgdn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cyclist is just a brief inconvenience. It's the same as a school bus or slow driver in a lane requiring you to go around. Every bike on the road is one less car causing traffic. It's crazy to want infrastructure for JUST cyclists when the road is a perfectly good way to travel.

This is not true. There are other transportation means such as buses and subways.

If you're lucky and live in an area that has a good public transportation infrastructure. But even in NYC, I can usually get to where I'm going on my bike in half the time it would take via public transit.

Re: Bike lanes have sped up car traffic in New York City

#120

Post by apendleton » Wed, Sep 10, 2014, 9:10 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #73

apendleton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think your particular mode of transport should have exclusive use of a public right of way that everyone owns and everyone's tax dollars pay to build and maintain, but it's cyclists that have the shitty entitled attitude?

Wait...you don't think particular modes of transport should have exclusive access to particular public rights of way that everyone owns and everyone's tax dollars pay to build and maintain? So does that mean you think motorcycles should have access to the sidewalks, and pedestrians should be able to walk in the street?

Lack of exclusivity might mean sharing the same lanes for multiple modes (what you're suggesting), or it might mean giving up some real estate to build dedicated infrastructure for other modes of transport (e.g. bike lanes, etc.). Which is appropriate will depend on context. But I don't think drivers have a right to object to both having to share lanes with cyclists and to giving up car lanes to build bike lanes. Cyclists are taxpayers, too, and should be entitled to something, but to hear some drivers talk about it, any infrastructural decision that doesn't lead to cars moving as quickly as possible ought to be verboten. That's what I find objectionable.

But to more bluntly answer your question: actually, yes, at least sometimes. Though I would instead phrase it as erasing the distinction between sidewalks and streets: http://nacto.org/usdg/commercial-shared-street/ This kind of streetscape is common in Europe and Asia, but much less so in the States.